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Why you are faster with the controller

Last post 10-06-2008, 4:57 AM by leahcim40. 91 replies.
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  •  07-15-2008, 11:38 AM 1727076

    Why you are faster with the controller

    This a little article Originally posted in our etccracing forum, pay us a visit to discuss more!


    There's is nothing more disappointing than finding out that you're not as great as you thought.

    More than a year ago, I bought the wireless MS wheel, even before the FM 2 was released, at the time I thought it was a good investment, when i tried out with the PGR 3 I was in awe, force feedback was something I'd wished for ages.

    I went on and waited till Forza was released, and spent 6 months driving with my wheel set happily. till I enrolled in the ETCC. the first two races were ok, in my second race I made it into the A final so, everything looked great... not! along came a gentleman by the name R2P JED... 2 seconds faster than anyone else!!!

    There was something wrong, somewhere... "that guy has to be cheating or doing something totally different I thought" and set forth in a quest to improve. I'm sure I found the "Mojo" (the tuning secret stuff) or at least a good portion of it, though, as any black art worth reckoning there are finer secrets buried deeper and deeper, you can spend hours and hours and you'll find out more and more ( I'm quite amazed at this depth, the guys in turn 10 did do an incredible job!!)

    One of those finer details have tremendous consecuences in gameplay: by the third race of the season 2 I  unplugged the wheel and practiced with the controler, suddenly I was a second faster.

    What?! Why did I buy that damn thing in the first place? I asked myself but then I started looking for answers. The process of discovering them was long, because i was not really looking in the right place and  because i did not have the technical knowledge i have now.

    First hypothesys: "I'm slower with the wheel because the pedals are plain terrible"

    Theory and testing: As discussed previously if you want to drive fast enough to keep the pace of the top guys around you would need skill, techniques and learn to steer with the "feet" (braking and throttle)

    To be able to do so you've got to have some feedback from the controls, in a real car such feedback is obvious, we have trained our feet to feel the pedal characteristics and subtleties for years now, but the pedals in the Game wheels are simply "inert" the springs that keep them in place are flimsy and offer no resistance, after 20 years of driving real cars you don't expect this to happen. To get to use them properly need hours upon hours of game time, plus lots of creativity to set them adequately in your house. (compare this effort to grabing your controller and... go racing!)

    Once you have trained your feet to do the job and/or find ways to adapt the pedals to your liking you start comparing your laptimes, the best way is racing your ghost, then you will discover where you go faster and slower, the controler guy brakes later and accelerates earlier? Yes... there's another issue: left foot braking.

    My american friends will like to know that, in the rest of the world, we use the left foot to activate a third pedal, indeed, there's a third pedal in the cars outside the "freeways", it's called: the clutch. ( just joking bros! I love those smooth, featureless, flawless concrete highways of yours )  Anyhow, most of us have to brake with the right foot, that little innocent extra movement of shifting pedals cost time, anything from .2 to .5 per lap depending on the circuit. You can train your left foot to brake, It'll take about 15 hrs of driving to get to use it correctly.

    ok, you have spent like 100 usd, a few bucks in assorted materials to set the pedals, 15 - 20 hrs of extra practice to use them adequately and... your still not matching your times with the controller. What? the controller guy seemed to carry more speed in the corners and went around the track with apparent higher responsiveness!

    I wanted to cry! 

    Verdict: The pedals require time and effort but they're not the cause for slower times when using the wheel.

    So? "bla, bla, bla; when do you get to the cheating part?"  Well, the answer was a lot subtler and requires more theory...

     

    Well, are you ready?

     

    I’m going to explain just how turn 10 did a hell of a job.

     

    I remember I read an interview from one of the project leaders at the game studios stating they had been going through a dead end in terms of game physics till they received actual data from one tire manufacturer. From that day the game changed radically.

     

    Well, they in the beginning must have thought, as many of us did, that tires worked in a totally different manner. Race tires have higher grip but also a feature that we don’t experience much in street driving: Slip angle.

     

    Slip angle is easy to explain, the tires point in one direction but the car travels in a different direction, in fact its not only a usual thing to “overwind” the wheel at each corner… it is mandatory that you make the tires slip to get the 100% of the traction capabilities.

     

    To spare you from charts and charts, the ideal amount of slip angle for race tires is between 5 and 9 degrees. So, in English, it means that you have to slide the car to get the best of the tires, if you are pointing in one direction and the car goes in exactly that direction: you are not driving fast enough.

     

    Remember that in the game, when your buying race tires, there’s a GRIP rating and then a RESPOSIVENESS rating? Well, if a tire has a lower responsiveness rating than grip, that tire needs a high slip angle to get the job done.

     

    This also means that you have to learn to slide the car, then learn the limits of the car when slipping and then learning to drive the car at exactly the limit… This is getting close to an art.

     

    In terms of driving it means that your job as a jockey gets terribly more complicated, you have to turn in at the right time, then at the right speed, then at the right slippage angle, then unwind the wheel at the right speed again. Imagine that! Now imagine that in the esses section at Suzuka (no wonder I had so many problems there with the wheel)

     

    Just to compare this effect in the controller I grabbed it immediately after testing this effect. And Eureka!

     

    WITH THE CONTROLLER YOU DON’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT SLIP ANGLES THE CONTROLLER DOES IT FOR YOU! NEITHER YOU HAVE TO WORRY FOR OVERDRIVING THE CAR, THE SOFTWARE WON’T ALLOW YOU TO EXCEED THE MAXIMUM SLIPPAGE ANGLE ( THAT YOU WOULD EXCEED EASILY WITH THE WHEEL)

     

    THE CONTROLLER GETS AN UNDISCUSSED HELP “STEERING ASSISTANCE”  

     

    So, this is cheating! With the controller you only have to move the stick to the direction you want to travel, you don’t need to measure how much. In most corners you just smoothly move the stick to the right, hit the limit of it, pass the apex unwind the stick (not even carefully) and you’re out! Hell, there are unconfirmed rumors that one of the top drivers in VVV uses the D-pad to steer!

     

    To get this clear, the software doesn’t tell you when to turn in nor gives you the ideal speed to move the stick but helps you with 50% of the steering job, at least.

     

    To be honest, if the game designers were to remove this assisted steering from the game, it would be nearly impossible to drive with the stick. So I can almost imagine the scene at the “weekly gd meeting” and suddenly someone inside should have told them “Boss, we have a problem, the game is too difficult to play with the controller.” – “Hell yes, it should be” – “no Boss you don’t get it, with this new model the japs gave us you can’t play unless you have the wheel, it’s too much!” -  That would have put a good chunk of the market out. So? They decided to give the controller a assistant akin to the Fly-by-wire systems in the new generation jets (those like the F-16 and Typhoon that are dynamically unstable and can’t be flown without a computer)

     

    Verdict: The real advantage of the controller is that removes the need to master the slippage angle concept of the race tires and basically steers to perfection at every corner, with out the guy at the controls knowing it. There should be a feature in the game that allow the lobby host to turn off the assistance as we can do with ABS, TCS and STM. In fact this is the greatest help possible.

     

    Note: Why is that the top drivers use the wheel?

     

    Well, most of them use ABS too! So it removes one of the main difficulties for mastering the game with the wheel. But they can beat the computer in one thing: they are artists, and are precise, smooth and incredibly sensitive to traction limits.

     

    The software is not that precise, especially at the turn in and at getting the right steering speed. (how fast you wind the wheel)  if you practice everyday, your brain is better than any computer, you can beat it… You just have to be a genius to do so!

     

    My wish for Forza 3, include the choice to get rid of the steering assistance and reward the guys that have paid 100 extra bucks, don’t pamper the teenage kids that would brag they’re fast with a controller. In a real race car, They wouldn’t make past the first corner.

     

    See you in the next.


  •  07-15-2008, 5:47 PM 1728248 in reply to 1727076

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    wow. very detailed. thanks for this. i knew there was something behind that. iv been racing the wheel for weeks and didnt get it till now.

    this should be sticky.


    FrEaKyxXxStYLey
    Absinthe Minded Auto Haus-Tuner/Tester
    Free Tune/Test Drive Request Thread
  •  07-15-2008, 10:01 PM 1728855 in reply to 1727076

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    Highly informative and well researched article, and I had my suspicions also of stick versus wheel.
    I ve had the game for about 6 months now, but only started racing online a few weeks ago, and got blown away by how fast some people are.
    However its s pain in the rear when your along side someone who is driving  with a stick and their car is hopping araound like a jumping bean in the corners

    It would be nice to see who has what controller in the lobby.

    I raced one guy who set up his controller with the   A button for the throttle, and B for the brake, all or nothing. Oh, and he won of course!

    LoonChaineyJnr.
  •  07-15-2008, 10:28 PM 1728908 in reply to 1728248

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    Great read!!!

     


    GT= x AvulsioN x
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  •  07-16-2008, 2:01 AM 1729444 in reply to 1727076

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    thats funny.   same thing happened to me. i bought a wheel and my lap times went up 1-2 seconds. i was getting so frustrated with it cause i could not figure out why i was slower. then i was on road atlanta short in my mugen integra and as i was cornering i noticed this little spot in the steering. ever since then ive been getting faster
  •  07-16-2008, 3:50 AM 1729649 in reply to 1729444

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    Definitely an interesting read. Thanks for posting Big Smile [:D]

    GT: BLKJ Evolution

    "The Rising Storm - A Cure For Constipation"
  •  07-16-2008, 3:43 PM 1731140 in reply to 1729649

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

      A very good post. Now I'm curious to try the controller myself and see if I can beat some old laptimes. Even if I improve I will stick with the wheel. Sometimes I need a smoke or a drink mid-race and the wheel makes that a lot easier... Wink [;)]
    GT - McPatrick
    My Car Collection
  •  07-16-2008, 6:19 PM 1731562 in reply to 1731140

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    nice work. idk how right you might be but i do know that it's harder to use the wheel because the wheel is a direct control. Turn it all the way and it turns all the way, with the controller is slows it down. Turn all the way and it doesn't... well i guess that's kinda what you said lol... but yea, nice job of explaining more of why the controller does that too. But turn that off and the controller will be extremely hard to use lol. think of it, a long curve that needs you to move the wheel like 2mm... that's hard to hold... especially for the people who drive by like tapping the toggle stick.
    GT:HLR Element
    Hard Luck Racing



    CT Tuning
  •  07-16-2008, 8:35 PM 1731915 in reply to 1731140

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    sick little monkey:
      Sometimes I need a smoke or a drink mid-race and the wheel makes that a lot easier... Wink [;)]

     

    hahaha    i hear you man.  im the same way


  •  07-17-2008, 12:43 AM 1732498 in reply to 1731562

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    I don't undrestand... well i drive a real car and i've got a driving licence but i still do a better job with the wheel on Forza 2. I use left foot braking and i can feel the start of understeer and oversteer intoo the MS stering wheel. I did a 53.961 in tsubuka with the hks evo unmodfied even in the setting with all assists off and with a 20 minutes of training with that car...is that good?
  •  07-17-2008, 6:09 PM 1734938 in reply to 1732498

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    WOW, this is very upsetting.  I know exactly what you are talking about, but never realized the controller assist connection.  I've done 1000s of laps and watched 100s of replays and there is a certain sound you hear the tires make while the leaders are cornering on the replays. Every once in a while I'll get that same sound while hot lapping and suddenly I'm pulling away from my ghost. At least I now know what is happening. So it looks like the choice is to give up the wheel or work harder than the guys using the controllers to beat their lap times.
  •  07-17-2008, 6:53 PM 1735068 in reply to 1734938

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    Well,

    Thanks for all the support. I'll underline the last note on the fact that the fastest drivers do something that,

    A) you can notice and makes the car go faster
    B) with training you'll do it too!

    But understanding the key factor here is paramount.

    To get the 100 percent of the grip of the tires it is imperative that you make your brain accept the fact that you have to slide the car in order to be fast. The sound your tires make it's a nice indicator. Make them cry!

    "if you feel the car turns as if on rails, your not driving fast enough"

    (a 53 high in Tsukuba is good, but 2 secs off the best. R2P JED can do 51's with no assists)
  •  07-17-2008, 7:46 PM 1735210 in reply to 1735068

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    I dunno i know of some really fast drivers that use the wheel

    and i think you got your laptimes wrong in regards to Jed


    Gamertag: AMG Sneaky Pete

    Please don't drink and drive
    RIP Casey (aka Pale Rider)
  •  07-17-2008, 8:07 PM 1735253 in reply to 1735210

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    Nope,

    I checked the scoreboards 51,7 in the H Evo. at least in the time trials

    No assists, quite remarkable
  •  07-17-2008, 8:31 PM 1735312 in reply to 1735253

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    oh time trials


    Gamertag: AMG Sneaky Pete

    Please don't drink and drive
    RIP Casey (aka Pale Rider)
  •  07-17-2008, 8:37 PM 1735325 in reply to 1735312

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    ya but thats Jed he races the controller R2P kimimatt races the wheel and hes just as fast, theres a fine line, the controller vs the wheel, i personally use to own the MS Wheel and i hated it, its a love hate type of movement, as for his assists his tuning is more depth as far as gearing and such just so he can run without TCS and be just as fast in a missle car, none the less great read
  •  07-18-2008, 1:38 AM 1736046 in reply to 1727076

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    i knew this about the controller a long time ago. i think they did it intentionally because you cant feel the road with the controller like you can with the wheel. you can crank the stick pretty hard and the steering is slowed in comparison (so you dont just snap the wheels left and right) and of course the slip angle thing.

    you can get understeer with the controller, but its much less compared to the wheel. however you have much more feel and precise control with the wheel, and you can feel what your tires are doing. if you start to lose traction the wheel gets loose. slide the rear end and the wheel turns in the opposite direction...dont fight it just let it do its thing and drive out of it. front wheel understeering? either let off the gas a tad or lessen the amount of steering input.

    the wheel isnt for everyone...it takes time to get used to it and be able to go as fast. left foot braking helps...i didnt even touch the brake pedal with my right foot when i set it up! its not set up well to do that...too uncomfortable, not to mention no clutch so no heel-toe!
    i did suck with it at first...once i could keep the car on the road i was around 5 seconds slower. after a week i got within 2 seconds of my normal times, and now i can match or even beat my controller times.

    driving a car on the limit is tough, especially with the wheel. a good rule of thumb for me is, if the tires arent howling youre not pushing hard enough. make them make noise and youll know youre at the limit...right at the edge of traction. of course, its easy to step over that line and make the car lose grip...but once you get consistant at it you will be rewarded.

    i prefer the wheel...no contest. just much more fun. however for PGR i use the controller...i think the wheel sucks for it. go figure!
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  •  07-18-2008, 4:21 AM 1736297 in reply to 1736046

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    Top guy in Time Trials, V12 BackOneABS uses the wheel ( so do most of his team mates).  Top guy in hotlap, R2P Kimimatt, uses the wheel.  So how is the controller faster again?

  •  07-18-2008, 7:12 AM 1736479 in reply to 1736297

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    You might be correct about the controller, but for me its more fun with the wheel.
  •  07-18-2008, 10:24 AM 1736780 in reply to 1736297

    Re: Why you are faster with the controller

    factory:
    Top guy in Time Trials, V12 BackOneABS uses the wheel ( so do most of his team mates).  Top guy in hotlap, R2P Kimimatt, uses the wheel.  So how is the controller faster again?

    Was thinking the same thing... word on the street is that a lot of the very top guys use the wheel... and I've read a rescent post claiming wheel is faster... I've seen great times achieved with both: pad and wheel... so the only thing that makes you fast... is skill... lots of dedication (lines, setups, etc.) and simply ... pure skill

    Besides the conclusion, which I do not agree with, I find this a very interesting article... (seriously!)




    GT: FTW Matio
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