Forzamotorsport.net Forums

I haven't analyzed the gaming industry financials, so this is all just conjecture, but... Losing Money on something is a very relative term.

1) If a game is released, which option do you think results in more overall sales of the game?

    A) No future updates or DLC, or
    B) Promised (and fulfilled) future upgrades and DLC.

I'm pretty sure B results in more overall sales - so in that sense, the DLC contributes to the overall profits - before any DLC is even released.

2) Many of the DLC cars are evolutions of previous cars... take the Porsche 996 GT2, and the 997 GT2, for example. It seems highly unlikely that development time/costs and licensing fees for the 997 model are the same as for the 996. More likely, the 996 was used as a base for the 997 - let's just guess 80% of it was re-used for the 997, and Porsche did not require any additional license fee. This applies to many of the DLC cars.

3) Each DLC release generates press coverage. So, every couple months or so, many thousands of gamers who have not yet purchased FM2 see it anew. That undoubtedly results in New Game Sales, in addition to the DLC sales.

Many, many products and industries have what are called "loss-leaders" ... that is, something that is sold which either breaks-even or - on its own - loses money. However, it generates enough revenue and contributes enough to the overall product that, when all is said and done, it's considered a "money maker."

Compare the DLC packs to this very website... does anybody think forzamotorsport.net makes money??? I can't imagine any way that it could, since nobody has to pay a subscription fee to use it... but, like the DLC, it adds value to the game overall, and results in more players (and game buyers).

- Don

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GT: Don Ente

Bah, Donald beat me to it.

It's impossible to measure how much money releasing DLC really generates.  One cannot measure the additional revenue based on DLC download stats alone.

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Donald Ente:

I haven't analyzed the gaming industry financials, so this is all just conjecture, but... Losing Money on something is a very relative term.

1) If a game is released, which option do you think results in more overall sales of the game?

    A) No future updates or DLC, or
    B) Promised (and fulfilled) future upgrades and DLC.

I say B as well, if it is done right.  And by right I mean not excluding content from the disk just so it can be sold later, which sadly has happened on some games.  But, if you stuff it full of content, and then release more and more new content, then I do believe you sell more games.  While building a loyal fanbase of customers to buy future games.

Imagine how great Forza 2 could have been if they stuffed the disk full of tracks, but instead of stopping there in track development kept on and had new tracks available every month.  The number of tracks is still the biggest and most glaring weakness of the game imo.  There weren't near enough at the start of the game and in a year we've gotten exactly 2 (yes, one has multiple ribbons) which is disappointing to say the least.

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Is this perhaps a perception now that we've got to have something every couple months for a game to be really good?  Monopoly as a board game continues to exist for over 70 years without any changes, and is as popular as ever with players in 103 countries and 37 different languages.  Maybe we should be refining our expertise on what we have instead of demanding more all the time?

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Snowowl:

Is this perhaps a perception now that we've got to have something every couple months for a game to be really good?  Monopoly as a board game continues to exist for over 70 years without any changes, and is as popular as ever with players in 103 countries and 37 different languages.  Maybe we should be refining our expertise on what we have instead of demanding more all the time?

And what, exactly, would DLC for monopoly look like?  You're comparing apples to giraffe tongues.

A racing simulator is evaluated partially based on the available content within the game.  Monopoly... isn't.

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GrumpyOldMan:

Snowowl:

Is this perhaps a perception now that we've got to have something every couple months for a game to be really good?  Monopoly as a board game continues to exist for over 70 years without any changes, and is as popular as ever with players in 103 countries and 37 different languages.  Maybe we should be refining our expertise on what we have instead of demanding more all the time?

And what, exactly, would DLC for monopoly look like?  You're comparing apples to giraffe tongues.

It would look like all the various special editions of the game that have allready been released.  You can get a monopoly game themed for just about anything.  Mine of course, is a UGA themed Monopoly.

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It is still the same game, though.  What download content has the GT series had?  I know GT1 caught the imagination of people for quite a while, and nothing was ever added.  We made it what we wanted, by running tournaments, hot laps, teams, etc.  Nothing about it changed at all.

I think we're a disposable, gimme something, no gimme something more, your download was poor because it isn't what I wanted, gotta have everything right now because I've already done five laps on the new track mentality.

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Pay It Forward
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This posting is provided as is; with no warranties, and confers no rights.

ncasolo:

I would say 1 Forza car is probably 10 Halo maps as far as time goes and even that number is probably too low.

If you are talking about a user working with the Forge, sure that is probably correct.  I believe it is much more difficult to work out an entirely new map for multiplayer than you think it is.

MidEvilKnight3k:

So for your statistic to be correct, T10 would need 30 designers dedicated to DLC for every 1 designer that bungie has.  Somehow I think you were exagerating.

I have no doubt that T10 looses money as they say, just that cars are as complicated as you say they are (or halo maps are as simple as you say)

I'm not positive on this, but I think you can find the DLC numbers somewhere on the net.  This would give a number to multiply by the price for each DLC release.  I imagine the amount of total FM2 downloads is pretty substantial.  Just based off of total users posting times in A Class on Motegi Road Course (15000 x $4.00= $60,000)  and Road America (23000 x $4.00= $92,000) I have to believe that if Turn 10 is actually losing money, it isn't very much.  If these tracks had been included in the game to begin with, I think there would have been a lot more FM2 sales.  I know at least 10 people that didn't buy FM2 simply because they were upset about the lack of tracks available to race.  

I don't think that Solo is towing the company line on this issue either.  I think he is simply relaying the information as it was given to him.  Now, whether or not the information that was given to him is correct or not, I couldn't say with any certainty but my hunch is that they fed him the company line which isn't exactly honest.

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GT: AMG Pale Rider
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. -- Albert Einstein

Snowowl:

It is still the same game, though.  What download content has the GT series had?  I know GT1 caught the imagination of people for quite a while, and nothing was ever added.  We made it what we wanted, by running tournaments, hot laps, teams, etc.  Nothing about it changed at all.

I think we're a disposable, gimme something, no gimme something more, your download was poor because it isn't what I wanted, gotta have everything right now because I've already done five laps on the new track mentality.

Expect people to complain about DLC if the last iteration of your franchise included more content than your current iteration.  Fairly basic concept.

Also, of course people will always want whatever they don't have.  The bar for expecting DLC was set by Microsoft themselves as a major marketing angle for what makes XBL worth the cash.  One of the main reasons I moved to the 360 was because of the promise of near infinite replayability with many titles via DLC.  Naturally I was a little annoyed to learn that the dawn of a new DLC generation had been greatly exaggerated.

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ForzaTunes Beta Discussion Thread

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ziffer657:

Ok so 28000 DLC downloads for the Motegi packs. A DLC pack is how much 400 MS Points? which is about $4.50 American??? Correct me if Im worng on this please!!! 28000 times 4.5 = $126000 in revenues at least from this DLC pack. Now if average DLC pack creation time = 2600 hours of labor (assuming 5 weeks per car times 40 hours per week times 13 cars per pack). Again this is all approximations based on the data, available to public. This means they could pay employees 48.5 dollars per hour (assuming no licensing fees). So lets say a Turn 10 worker makes 25 bucks an hour. That means Turn 10 has 61 thousand dollars left over for licensing vehicles!!! EASILY ENOUGH! This is just based off the assumption that all DLC packs take on average the same amount of time to create. Based on these numbers, I think Turn 10 makes a profit.

Ah, I didn't get this far before I responded.  Those Motegi numbers are much higher than the A Class numbers lol.

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GT: AMG Pale Rider
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. -- Albert Einstein

BBR Pale Rider:

ziffer657:

Ok so 28000 DLC downloads for the Motegi packs. A DLC pack is how much 400 MS Points? which is about $4.50 American??? Correct me if Im worng on this please!!! 28000 times 4.5 = $126000 in revenues at least from this DLC pack. Now if average DLC pack creation time = 2600 hours of labor (assuming 5 weeks per car times 40 hours per week times 13 cars per pack). Again this is all approximations based on the data, available to public. This means they could pay employees 48.5 dollars per hour (assuming no licensing fees). So lets say a Turn 10 worker makes 25 bucks an hour. That means Turn 10 has 61 thousand dollars left over for licensing vehicles!!! EASILY ENOUGH! This is just based off the assumption that all DLC packs take on average the same amount of time to create. Based on these numbers, I think Turn 10 makes a profit.

Ah, I didn't get this far before I responded.  Those Motegi numbers are much higher than the A Class numbers lol.

Side note on that...  a skilled developer makes a whole lot more than $25/hour in most markets.  That $48.50/hr is much closer to the mark.

$25/hr is second tier help desk wages.


I know they still make cash because there are more figures to factor in, but I think there is a general misconception of what development costs truly run.

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GrumpyOldMan:

Snowowl:

It is still the same game, though.  What download content has the GT series had?  I know GT1 caught the imagination of people for quite a while, and nothing was ever added.  We made it what we wanted, by running tournaments, hot laps, teams, etc.  Nothing about it changed at all.

I think we're a disposable, gimme something, no gimme something more, your download was poor because it isn't what I wanted, gotta have everything right now because I've already done five laps on the new track mentality.

Expect people to complain about DLC if the last iteration of your franchise included more content than your current iteration.  Fairly basic concept.

Also, of course people will always want whatever they don't have.  The bar for expecting DLC was set by Microsoft themselves as a major marketing angle for what makes XBL worth the cash.  One of the main reasons I moved to the 360 was because of the promise of near infinite replayability with many titles via DLC.  Naturally I was a little annoyed to learn that the dawn of a new DLC generation had been greatly exaggerated.

And regardless of what Turn10 and its employees will tell us, the snake tracks don't count lol.  I have yet to see any post anywhere that would indicate someone would rather have all those snake tracks instead of Blue Mountains, Rio, Tokyo, NY Long, Alpine Ring and the infamous Fuji Kaido.  I really, really hope that Turn10 corrects this mistake on FM3.

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GT: AMG Pale Rider
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. -- Albert Einstein

FuBaRwales:

ziffer657:

Ok so 28000 DLC downloads for the Motegi packs. A DLC pack is how much 400 MS Points? which is about $4.50 American??? Correct me if Im worng on this please!!! 28000 times 4.5 = $126000 in revenues at least from this DLC pack. Now if average DLC pack creation time = 2600 hours of labor (assuming 5 weeks per car times 40 hours per week times 13 cars per pack). Again this is all approximations based on the data, available to public. This means they could pay employees 48.5 dollars per hour (assuming no licensing fees). So lets say a Turn 10 worker makes 25 bucks an hour. That means Turn 10 has 61 thousand dollars left over for licensing vehicles!!! EASILY ENOUGH! This is just based off the assumption that all DLC packs take on average the same amount of time to create. Based on these numbers, I think Turn 10 makes a profit.

seeeee we told u so lol..... was obv they were making money.

I say thats a good case for how they DO make money add in how a fair few cars are just older ones with a few new bits tagged on and they make even more

as for getting the car packs for free.... why? you dont pay the extra you dont get the extra content same for thr LCE cars and pre-order car (that can be won for free FYI)

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BBR Pale Rider:

GrumpyOldMan:

Snowowl:

It is still the same game, though.  What download content has the GT series had?  I know GT1 caught the imagination of people for quite a while, and nothing was ever added.  We made it what we wanted, by running tournaments, hot laps, teams, etc.  Nothing about it changed at all.

I think we're a disposable, gimme something, no gimme something more, your download was poor because it isn't what I wanted, gotta have everything right now because I've already done five laps on the new track mentality.

Expect people to complain about DLC if the last iteration of your franchise included more content than your current iteration.  Fairly basic concept.

Also, of course people will always want whatever they don't have.  The bar for expecting DLC was set by Microsoft themselves as a major marketing angle for what makes XBL worth the cash.  One of the main reasons I moved to the 360 was because of the promise of near infinite replayability with many titles via DLC.  Naturally I was a little annoyed to learn that the dawn of a new DLC generation had been greatly exaggerated.

And regardless of what Turn10 and its employees will tell us, the snake tracks don't count lol.  I have yet to see any post anywhere that would indicate someone would rather have all those snake tracks instead of Blue Mountains, Rio, Tokyo, NY Long, Alpine Ring and the infamous Fuji Kaido.  I really, really hope that Turn10 corrects this mistake on FM3.

Ditto, I think the only people that would rather have the snake tracks would be Greek and Impala lol. Other than that I think everyone would rather have the other tracks in the game..........

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GT: AMG The Wolf

Xx01CamaroZ28xX:

BBR Pale Rider:

And regardless of what Turn10 and its employees will tell us, the snake tracks don't count lol.  I have yet to see any post anywhere that would indicate someone would rather have all those snake tracks instead of Blue Mountains, Rio, Tokyo, NY Long, Alpine Ring and the infamous Fuji Kaido.  I really, really hope that Turn10 corrects this mistake on FM3.

Ditto, I think the only people that would rather have the snake tracks would be Greek and Impala lol. Other than that I think everyone would rather have the other tracks in the game..........

Of course, "rather have 'em" is different than "in addition to" ... personally, I would rather have all the Snakes than just one of the tracks listed above. The Snakes are great for learning / practicing turn-types. I like to run the various configurations both forward and reverse when I'm working with a new car. It's not unusual for me to run 50+ laps while working on a single turn, then loading up the same track reversed and run another 50+ laps taking that turn left instead of right. Really tough to do that on a track that takes 1.5 minutes to get back around to that specific turn.

I also find that I spend the majority of my time racing on only a few of the tracks that we do have... I know that many folks enjoy jumping from track to track to track --- and if that's how one likes to enjoy the game, GREAT! Have a ball! And of course, I hope we continue to get the occasional new DLC Track-Pack. But with what we have now, I'm still racing a few hours pretty much every night.

In real-life, I drive Road Atlanta, with another track weekend coming up in June... sure, I'd love to get out on a few different tracks (and I will, just haven't gotten to 'em yet), but the fact that I'm headed out on Road Atlanta "again" does not in any way mean I'm not looking forward to it because it's not a new track.

- Don

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GT: Don Ente

Donald Ente:

Xx01CamaroZ28xX:

BBR Pale Rider:

And regardless of what Turn10 and its employees will tell us, the snake tracks don't count lol.  I have yet to see any post anywhere that would indicate someone would rather have all those snake tracks instead of Blue Mountains, Rio, Tokyo, NY Long, Alpine Ring and the infamous Fuji Kaido.  I really, really hope that Turn10 corrects this mistake on FM3.

Ditto, I think the only people that would rather have the snake tracks would be Greek and Impala lol. Other than that I think everyone would rather have the other tracks in the game..........

Of course, "rather have 'em" is different than "in addition to" ... personally, I would rather have all the Snakes than just one of the tracks listed above. The Snakes are great for learning / practicing turn-types. I like to run the various configurations both forward and reverse when I'm working with a new car. It's not unusual for me to run 50+ laps while working on a single turn, then loading up the same track reversed and run another 50+ laps taking that turn left instead of right. Really tough to do that on a track that takes 1.5 minutes to get back around to that specific turn.

I also find that I spend the majority of my time racing on only a few of the tracks that we do have... I know that many folks enjoy jumping from track to track to track --- and if that's how one likes to enjoy the game, GREAT! Have a ball! And of course, I hope we continue to get the occasional new DLC Track-Pack. But with what we have now, I'm still racing a few hours pretty much every night.

In real-life, I drive Road Atlanta, with another track weekend coming up in June... sure, I'd love to get out on a few different tracks (and I will, just haven't gotten to 'em yet), but the fact that I'm headed out on Road Atlanta "again" does not in any way mean I'm not looking forward to it because it's not a new track.

- Don

You're weird

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GT = P00hhead (two zero's )

Blitzwing:

as for getting the car packs for free.... why? you dont pay the extra you dont get the extra content same for thr LCE cars and pre-order car (that can be won for free FYI)

Because I already payed $60 for the game.

I wouldnt mind paying that much if you could customize the car packs before you download them.

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just because you paid that much isn't a reason, you paid for what you got, you want the extra stuff pay for it. As for your other point well I think if they offered the cars individually that would solve your problem

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HitMan1263:

Porbably not. The loose money making the DLC anyways.The most they will give you is a free car, or three (the nissan car pack).

Turn 10 is most definitely NOT losing money on their DLC.   An interview was done with a Turn 10 employee where they confirmed that the DLC is nothing more than stuff that wasn't released with the original game.  Read the following excerpt from this INTERVIEW and note the "we've released 35 of the hottest cards that didn't make it on the disc".

1. What’s the overall theme of this car pack?

Each of the car packs we’ve released so far have had little mini-themes. For instance, in the September Car Pack, we had a couple of late model Civics, and a classic/modern pairing of the Lamborghini Miura. But I think the way to look at DLC so far is to see them as one complete package. Since Forza 2 launched last summer, we’ve released 35 of the hottest cars that didn’t make it on disc, many of which are related across the different packs to make up an overall “theme”, like new vs. old, exotic vs. everyman, and everything in-between

Leathersoup:

Read the following excerpt from this INTERVIEW and note the "we've released 35 of the hottest cards that didn't make it on the disc".

That may or may not mean the cars were actually modeled prior to release.

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Founder of (beta):



ForzaTunes Beta Discussion Thread

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