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Donald Ente:

People forget (and this has been fully discussed in other threads, so I'll try to be brief) that the PI rating system is much more complex than it may appear. The car's capabilities are evaluated across many tracks (or track-types) to calculate the PI. That's why the PI for the muscle cars seems to be out-of-line, resulting in a much bigger advantage on speed-biased tracks than one would expect. However, take that muscle car out onto handling-biased tracks, and you find yourself being lapped. Same PI, against the same opponent cars, but it no longer has an advantage.

I tried this out actually in D Class with a Trans Am and a (virtually unupgradeable) '07 Civic using Blooze's QR rating (total time at Tsukuba, Sebring Short and Road Atlanta Short). You're spot on saying that the PI works better than many people suspect - those two very different cars were separated by about 1.5 seconds on the QR's.

I can't imagine that anyone wants to have to keep track of a different PI per-car / per-track... Not me, that's for sure.

As far as the "LB Cars are cars of the same "PI" as the other cars, that have a disproportionately high advantage" goes, again, people don't fully understand what's going on.
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It's far more accurate to talk about "Leader Board Drivers" than cars. If the 96 guys ahead of me on Maple Short spent a little time in that Dodge Stealth, I'd bet 95% of them could beat me...

This is very true - people like Georgia Dog could pull out that uncompetitive car and still beat me, even if I ran something like the R5. I think, like many people, I got sucked into the "leaderboard cars" terminology. As I said above, I don't mind people using the leaderboard cars per se, it's just the people that come into a room, use one to win by 600m, then continue using them and leaving the rest of the room miles behind every race. That first race is understandable, with Truskill being only a vague indicator you may not be sure of how your skill compares to other drivers. Once you know you are their equal (or better), is it really good sportsmanship to continue with that car when everyone else is running normal cars? The people who aren't so highly skilled, but can race with the rest by using the fastest cars I think are going on the right lines. If you're with a bunch of like-minded people when there's nothing wrong with running them, so I hope noone construes my comments as an attack on them - they're not.

You said somewhere that if you walk away with a race, you will go to try another room. That is something I can totally respect. When I'm in that situation, I usually pull out another car which I know will be slower. I think we're both after the same ends (good close racing), just pursuing it by different means.

There are many ways to get an "unfair advantage" in multiplayer races... You say that someone driving a "Leaderboard" car is getting an unfair advantage. It works the other way too - telling the other players that they are not allowed to drive their favorite car, while you drive your favorite car, is, in my view, giving yourself an unfair advantage (or trying to, anyway).

I can see the validity in this statement. Personally, I try to mix and match my cars, so there is no one favourite. But, I would also not try to argue that there is nobody online tries this. And, if we're all honest, whatever you think about leaderboard cars, the people driving them are still a million times less annoying than the driver who tries to run you off the track...

- Don

There's lots of bits that I'd like to reply to - it's probably easier if I just add my comments in blue above.

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"My mistakes are not errors, just predictions immediately proved wrong." - Murray Walker

http://www.forza-tuning.net

GT: Spiny Anteater

Captain Slow:

This is very true - people like Georgia Dog could pull out that uncompetitive car and still beat me, even if I ran something like the R5. I think, like many people, I got sucked into the "leaderboard cars" terminology. As I said above, I don't mind people using the leaderboard cars per se, it's just the people that come into a room, use one to win by 600m, then continue using them and leaving the rest of the room miles behind every race. That first race is understandable, with Truskill being only a vague indicator you may not be sure of how your skill compares to other drivers. Once you know you are their equal (or better), is it really good sportsmanship to continue with that car when everyone else is running normal cars? The people who aren't so highly skilled, but can race with the rest by using the fastest cars I think are going on the right lines. If you're with a bunch of like-minded people when there's nothing wrong with running them, so I hope noone construes my comments as an attack on them - they're not.

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And then there's people who can pull out a even more uncompetitive car and beat me.  I think the main thing that gets under my skin about LB car complainers is this general belief they have that driving one automatically makes them fast.  Which of course is nowhere near the truth.

I do understand that it can be annoying if you've got a room going and everyone is in different cars and all of that and someone comes in and destroys the field with a LB car.  What I don't understand is why anyone would let it get that far.  I played PGR2 for about a year and a half before FM2 came out and I made the jump to Forza.  In that game most of the lobbies were ran with cars in Ultimate class which mainly consisted of the Porsche 911 GT1 and the slightly inferior, although still fast enough in skilled hands Mercedes CLK-GTR.  These two weren't the fastest cars in the game though as the DLC Radical SR8 and the TVR Speed 12 were the fastest cars in the game.  There was a general rule in my lobbies, and most others, that you could race whatever you wanted except those two cars.  If someone didn't comply, they got the boot hammer.  That's all that needs to be done in these situations on Forza.  If you've got a room and you're all running whatever you deem to be non LB cars and someone comes in with a LB car and won't change....BOOT THEM and be done with it.  Nobodies race is "ruined" and noone has any need to complain about the hated LB cars.

But then you get the guys who set up lobbies with all kinds of crazy restrictions, either to prevent LB cars or to taylor the lobby to their advantage.  Someone comes in finds they can't run their LB car and they leave.  Then there's these same people complaining because they wouldn't stay.  I'm not staying either if I come into a lobby and someone has some odd HP limit where they've tuned a car specifically for it and I've just got random cars from my garage that aren't going to be competitive.

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R.I.P. Pale Rider

Dawg hit the nail on the head.

You don't want them in your room? restrict them out. No 1000hp monsters or no 5lb featherweights

You want to run your LB car, but its restricted? Find another room.

What I don't agree with however is booting someone before you explain to them what is happenning. I have been in rooms before where we were running S-class cars that started in A class or lower, and the host wouldn't even explain that to people. as soon as you pick the CLK or Mclaren or Enzo, it was boot time.

funny people who say, "I don't run leaderboard cars."  Then go on to list all the cars that are just a hair slower than the top leaderboard cars they use.  If it is on the leaderboards in the top 100 it is guess what...... a leaderboard car. 

hence i use whatever can i use, i don't even LOOK at the leaderboards.

fredflintstone:

GeorgiaDawg72:

fredflintstone:

GeorgiaDawg72:

CHR15 R0:

I don't have any 'leaderboard cars' in my garage.


In A class it's either my Evo.9 or my Civic Si Coupe.

Hate to break the news to you but that Evo 9 is fairly high on some scoreboards, so by the definition most people around here apply, it is a scoreboard car.

The cupra 07's no slouch either...

 

Now that you mention it I remember a old teammate from TKR put that car into the top 100 on a couple tracks.  Yep, it's a scoreboard car too.

 

Racer27 did a 2:08'5 at suzuka two nights ago in it, talking most of the lap aswell....

lol, maybe saying 'leaderboard car' was the wrong thing then.

When I race online with a couple of my friends, we don't see the cars I mentioned very often.
We see alot of Evo. 8's or X's but not many 9's. Same with the Cupra, I just don't see them very often online.

Sorry I didn't explain myself very well before, lol

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My gamertag= HOBG0BL1N

Woooo Hoooo! We finally got some non-antagonistic, academic discussion on this issue

One of the best recent comments was related to communication in the lobbies. If the host of the race enjoys having a variety of cars, Great! Just say so... many folks will politely acquiesce, or head off to find a race that is more suited to their style of enjoyment. If the person is a [jerk] and won't comply, tell him he's being booted and remove him.

A note to those who talk about the various cars they use, and who don't want "LB" cars being run: There is a great "sticky" thread at the top of the Racing Techniques section of this forum, titled " Race Settings Database." Hop on over there, and post the upgrades / tuning specs for the non-LB cars you like to drive, and then start a thread inviting people to build those cars and come race with you. That way, everyone can be running the same car with the same tune (well, the same "base" tune, as everyone will tweak it to their driving style), and nobody has a "car advantage" (and you'll have cars that are generally more fun to drive than having to use a "stock" car via setting the Default Upgrades and Tuning option).

There are already some very good cars listed there... the 67th message in that thread has a link to an A-Class Evo.8 MR... I followed those specs and built the car yesterday, and was able to post the #87 time on Tsukuba. Granted, the Evo.8 MR is considered a "LB" car, so it's not the best example... but it's a great example of how good some of the posted cars are.

- Don

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GT: Don Ente



Video - Forza vs. Real World at Road Atlanta

You are a wise one Don, but it wasn't until your last post that you made yourself completely clear.
Just for the record, i never had a problem with you, or antogonising you. i just couldn't understand why in the world you would find working hard to wring that last bit of perfromance out of your inferior car and beating the big boys didn't bring you any satisfaction. But to each their own i guess.

sleep3:

But to each their own i guess.

That sums up the entire thing right there.  7 words.

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factory:

Mafioso:

Uhhm, hell yes its time to break out the Golf. Its the PERFECT time. I'm not gonna drive my second best car just to have competitive varied races. I wanna blow them out each time in the same exact car I always drive. Thats fun to me.

I could give a damn about the room, I wanna get my True Skill ranking to Ultra Galactic Jedi Legend level 85. Thats my only goal in life.

Someone needs to take a chill pill and rethink how the way others play a video game really affects their life.  If people driving the fastest car in a racing game really bothers you that much, maybe you should play something else.  You don't get to decide what others find fun about Forza.  Grow up.

Man it was a bad joke aight. Dont get offended because it hit a nerve with you. I race against dorks in LB cars all day long. Its a part of the game. But I still think they're pu$$ies. They have a right to drive them, and I have a right to call them out on it. And you dont get to decide what I can complain about or not. Thats what forums are for. Maybe you should take half of my chill pill.

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GT: PANAMAFIOSO TIMETRIAL: 172,523 HOTLAP: 5944 CAREER: 306,344 ////////////

Mafioso:

factory:

Mafioso:

Uhhm, hell yes its time to break out the Golf. Its the PERFECT time. I'm not gonna drive my second best car just to have competitive varied races. I wanna blow them out each time in the same exact car I always drive. Thats fun to me.

I could give a damn about the room, I wanna get my True Skill ranking to Ultra Galactic Jedi Legend level 85. Thats my only goal in life.

Someone needs to take a chill pill and rethink how the way others play a video game really affects their life.  If people driving the fastest car in a racing game really bothers you that much, maybe you should play something else.  You don't get to decide what others find fun about Forza.  Grow up.

Man it was a bad joke aight. Dont get offended because it hit a nerve with you. I race against dorks in LB cars all day long. Its a part of the game. But I still think they're pu$$ies. They have a right to drive them, and I have a right to call them out on it. And you dont get to decide what I can complain about or not. Thats what forums are for. Maybe you should take half of my chill pill.

haha, yeah, if you couldn't tell that was joke, its sad. i laffed my *** off....Galactic Jedi level 85 :)

GeorgiaDawg72:

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I think the main thing that gets under my skin about LB car complainers is this general belief they have that driving one automatically makes them fast.  Which of course is nowhere near the truth.

As I said earlier, as an example. I was ranked 1200th at Maple Valley for months. Trying every one of my B700 cars (I must have about 20 or 30). Doing dozens of laps.

I finally jump in my integra and got a top 100 time within 3 laps.

I would say that counts as automatically making me fast.

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GT: PANAMAFIOSO TIMETRIAL: 172,523 HOTLAP: 5944 CAREER: 306,344 ////////////

Same thing happened to me at mugello. jumped into the NSX and boom, over a second faster.
Those cars are just so easy to drive. I can probably do the same time with my ther cars, but it would take a LOT of work. a LOOOOT of work.....which i don't really mind doing :)

and of course if I do manage to get my challenge up there, the effort it took to that time will be impossible to consistently do over a ten lap race. whereas with the NSX I can be over a second faster lap after lap no sweat.

I love that challenge though, from the first time I drove it, don't you DARE tell me it will never be a fast car.

Mafioso:

GeorgiaDawg72:

.
I think the main thing that gets under my skin about LB car complainers is this general belief they have that driving one automatically makes them fast.  Which of course is nowhere near the truth.

As I said earlier, as an example. I was ranked 1200th at Maple Valley for months. Trying every one of my B700 cars (I must have about 20 or 30). Doing dozens of laps.

I finally jump in my integra and got a top 100 time within 3 laps.

I would say that counts as automatically making me fast.

Don't discount your skills either, to be in the top 100 on any track, esp. one as heavily run as Maple Valley, you have to be good. Also you gained about 1 to 1.5 sec in a low HP but lightweight, very grippy car that is very well suited for that track. You may have gained a lot in ranking, but what you gained in time wasn't all that much. I would probably be 3000 on that track in a Mugen Integra, nowhere near leaderboard status.

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GT = P00hhead (two zero's )

Obviously I knew it was sarcasm.  But underneath it was a blatant jab at everyone else who does enjoy driving the fastest possible car they can, because it is a RACING game.  My point to you is that I think you are blaming the wrong person for losing races.  I have several cars in B class that can get times in the top 200 on any track, even top 100.  My Cobalt, Focus, Altima, and Civic Si to name but 4.  Why dont you?  I haven't raced in a Mugen online ever.  I have used one for hotlaping, but never in a race.  I also don't kick out Mugen drivers, or cry on the forums that they are beating me.

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I usually try to pick a car or change my assists to the level of the room.  So who knows i might bring out a Charger (which i don't actually), but leave TCS off, etc...

The only problem i have is I went into a room once, and some Veteran (32) or so was beating up on some poor amateurs with a Stingray.  I thought that was pretty low to be honest, i promptly beat him like 2-3x in a row with my FairladyZ lol..

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Gamertag: AMG Sneaky Pete

Please don't drink and drive
RIP Casey (aka Pale Rider)

Sneaky:

I usually try to pick a car or change my assists to the level of the room.  So who knows i might bring out a Charger (which i don't actually), but leave TCS off, etc...

The only problem i have is I went into a room once, and some Veteran (32) or so was beating up on some poor amateurs with a Stingray.  I thought that was pretty low to be honest, i promptly beat him like 2-3x in a row with my FairladyZ lol..

and he stayed? GASP.

Most of the veterans I meet immediately disconnect when they are about to be beaten for fear of losing their rank. This whole truskill rank has gotten out of hand when people take it so seriously they turn off their xbox when they are being beaten.

sleep3:

Most of the veterans I meet immediately disconnect when they are about to be beaten for fear of losing their rank.

I've heard this before, does that even work?  I always thought a DNF was worse than coming in 2nd or 3rd or whatever.

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Gamertag: AMG Sneaky Pete

Please don't drink and drive
RIP Casey (aka Pale Rider)

P00hhead:

I would probably be 3000 on that track in a Mugen Integra, nowhere near leaderboard status.

No way. I think you're underestimating the power of the Mugen Integra. If you used the tune that I used you'll be in the top 1000 atleast. Unless you drive slow on purpose just to make me look bad. haha

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GT: PANAMAFIOSO TIMETRIAL: 172,523 HOTLAP: 5944 CAREER: 306,344 ////////////

factory:

My point to you is that I think you are blaming the wrong person for losing races. 

I'm not blaming anybody for loosing anything. I dont loose races. My record is 500-0.

factory:

I have several cars in B class that can get times in the top 200 on any track, even top 100.  My Cobalt, Focus, Altima, and Civic Si to name but 4.  Why dont you? 

Cuz I suck at tuning therefore I'm forced to buy cars from punks like yourself. (love the Altima by the way ).

I just told you, I tryed all my tuned B cars and could not scratch 1000, jump in my Mugen and hit 100. Its simple math. The car made me instantly faster.

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GT: PANAMAFIOSO TIMETRIAL: 172,523 HOTLAP: 5944 CAREER: 306,344 ////////////