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I wish more people did stock car races, no one can argue everyones in EXACTLY the same car and it's only driver skill that counts, but whenever I set a room up with stock cars nearly everyone quits because they can't choose their precious cars, I also wish that in the Time Trials you didn't have the option to tune some of the cars, that way Time Trials= 100% driver skill only, Hotlap= driver skill and good tuning

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GT- oo F4T4L1TY oo

Manual gears
All assists off
Stock tyres full power no wings

TMM M45T3R:

I wish more people did stock car races, no one can argue everyones in EXACTLY the same car and it's only driver skill that counts, but whenever I set a room up with stock cars nearly everyone quits because they can't choose their precious cars, I also wish that in the Time Trials you didn't have the option to tune some of the cars, that way Time Trials= 100% driver skill only, Hotlap= driver skill and good tuning

heh heh. do a little "Forza Star in a Reasonably Priced Car"

Captain Slow:

It's horses for courses really, and if you enter a room with, say, a Mazda Axela, a PT Cruiser, an Eclipse, an '07 Civic, a Del Sol and a Talon, is it really in the spirit of the room to go pull out your MkII Golf?

Uhhm, hell yes its time to break out the Golf. Its the PERFECT time. I'm not gonna drive my second best car just to have competitive varied races. I wanna blow them out each time in the same exact car I always drive. Thats fun to me.

I could give a damn about the room, I wanna get my True Skill ranking to Ultra Galactic Jedi Legend level 85. Thats my only goal in life.

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GT: PANAMAFIOSO TIMETRIAL: 172,523 HOTLAP: 5944 CAREER: 306,344 ////////////

Donald Ente:

Try reading my post as a continuous thought, instead of individual statements... it will make a lot more sense to you.

No.

Donald Ente:

I don't remember anybody talking about the same PI ... everyone is talking about these vaguely-defined "LB" cars.

PI is exactly what we're talking about. PI is how cars are matched in the game. LB Cars are cars of the same "PI" as the other cars, that have a disproportionately high advantage. Theres nothing vague about it.

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GT: PANAMAFIOSO TIMETRIAL: 172,523 HOTLAP: 5944 CAREER: 306,344 ////////////

And that's why we're all hoping that Forza 3 will have a "patchable" PI system, so when broad imbalances are found in the times a given build or class of car can turn in on a number of tracks are better than everything else, Turn 10 can find a way to change the PI formula to bring the field in line.  The fun part of that will be all the posts when someone logs into Live and wonders why the PI of all the cars in their garage are suddenly different...

To many on here have a defeatist attitude when someone gets in a  scoreboard car, its down to driver skill to make it work especially when driving missiles. I was racing 7 laps around sebring in my mini against a missile car and still took the win, why? because I  was putting in consistent quick laps.

 

 

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GT : CORN1SH

Tip :-
Drop gravel into your fuel tank so you can fill up your car for less.

I can understand both sides of this argument....there are those who like to win and go fast doing it...and there are those who enjoy close competition and not overly concerned about the win itself.  There are many ways of handling this.  The game allows you to set restrictions for the cars allowed...use them.  I have found using these restrictions creates absolutely awsome racing.  There are a lot of rooms out there...go find them.  Do I use LB cars?  Only in S and U class.  All other classes I tend to use a variety of cars because I enjoy the challenge of tring to build the other cars in the game up so I can hang with a LB car.

Mafioso:

Uhhm, hell yes its time to break out the Golf. Its the PERFECT time. I'm not gonna drive my second best car just to have competitive varied races. I wanna blow them out each time in the same exact car I always drive. Thats fun to me.

I could give a damn about the room, I wanna get my True Skill ranking to Ultra Galactic Jedi Legend level 85. Thats my only goal in life.

Someone needs to take a chill pill and rethink how the way others play a video game really affects their life.  If people driving the fastest car in a racing game really bothers you that much, maybe you should play something else.  You don't get to decide what others find fun about Forza.  Grow up.

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^^^ FTW!

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CT Tuning FTW!

People forget (and this has been fully discussed in other threads, so I'll try to be brief) that the PI rating system is much more complex than it may appear. The car's capabilities are evaluated across many tracks (or track-types) to calculate the PI. That's why the PI for the muscle cars seems to be out-of-line, resulting in a much bigger advantage on speed-biased tracks than one would expect. However, take that muscle car out onto handling-biased tracks, and you find yourself being lapped. Same PI, against the same opponent cars, but it no longer has an advantage.

I can't imagine that anyone wants to have to keep track of a different PI per-car / per-track...

As far as the "LB Cars are cars of the same "PI" as the other cars, that have a disproportionately high advantage" goes, again, people don't fully understand what's going on.

See this thread about an A-Class Dodge Stealth. On Maple Valley Short, I've got (currently) the #97 time... does that make the Stealth a "Leaderboard" car? I fully expect I could grab an Elise 135R or a Renault and beat that time, knocking the Stealth off of the scoreboard. So then, nobody can claim the Stealth is a LB car... now I can start a lobby, declare "No Evil LB Cars Allowed," and pull out my Stealth. Do you really think that I have not now given myself an unfair advantage?

The point being: for every "LB" car, there are other cars that can be driven almost as fast --- but they don't show up as "LB" cars, because they are not used as much, or they are a fraction of a second slower.

And, let's not forget that, even with a so-called "Leaderboard" car, one still has to be able to drive it... Looking at the Top-1000 times for A-Class at Mugello, for example.

The Elise 135R has 182 of the Top-1000 times (so I'm assuming it's considered a "Leaderboard" car) ranging from #3 to #1000:

    #   3  1:48.255
    #1000  1:50.852

That's 2.6 seconds difference, with the same car!

Browsing through that scoreboard, I see 5 Top-1000 times set with the Volvo S60 R (not a LB car), all of them faster than the #1000 Elise. In fact, the top Volvo time is 1:49.650 ... 1.2 seconds faster. People will complain if someone loads up the "Evil LB Elise," yet not say a word if it's the Volvo. How does that make any sense?

It's far more accurate to talk about "Leader Board Drivers" than cars. If the 96 guys ahead of me on Maple Short spent a little time in that Dodge Stealth, I'd bet 95% of them could beat me.

There are many ways to get an "unfair advantage" in multiplayer races... You say that someone driving a "Leaderboard" car is getting an unfair advantage. It works the other way too - telling the other players that they are not allowed to drive their favorite car, while you drive your favorite car, is, in my view, giving yourself an unfair advantage (or trying to, anyway).

- Don

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GT: Don Ente



Video - Forza vs. Real World at Road Atlanta

I don't have any 'leaderboard cars' in my garage.

I usually race in B and A class.
In B class I use either my Seat Leon Cupra 07 (the DLC one!) or my Mazda Axela!!
In A class it's either my Evo.9 or my Civic Si Coupe.

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My gamertag= HOBG0BL1N

Don, I will not be persuaded by facts and logic, they are irrelevant. We all know that the Elise is the spawn of the devil and must be done away with.

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GT = P00hhead (two zero's )

P00hhead:

Don, I will not be persuaded by facts and logic, they are irrelevant. We all know that the Elise is the spawn of the devil and must be done away with.

What if they gave it AWD? and an extra 200 hp and torque?  that would be satan himself, lol

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A.K.A. "Eog Guy"

Spelling courtesy of Fatboyshane

Donald Ente:

People forget (and this has been fully discussed in other threads, so I'll try to be brief) that the PI rating system is much more complex than it may appear. The car's capabilities are evaluated across many tracks (or track-types) to calculate the PI. That's why the PI for the muscle cars seems to be out-of-line, resulting in a much bigger advantage on speed-biased tracks than one would expect. However, take that muscle car out onto handling-biased tracks, and you find yourself being lapped. Same PI, against the same opponent cars, but it no longer has an advantage.

I can't imagine that anyone wants to have to keep track of a different PI per-car / per-track...

As far as the "LB Cars are cars of the same "PI" as the other cars, that have a disproportionately high advantage" goes, again, people don't fully understand what's going on.

See this thread about an A-Class Dodge Stealth. On Maple Valley Short, I've got (currently) the #97 time... does that make the Stealth a "Leaderboard" car? I fully expect I could grab an Elise 135R or a Renault and beat that time, knocking the Stealth off of the scoreboard. So then, nobody can claim the Stealth is a LB car... now I can start a lobby, declare "No Evil LB Cars Allowed," and pull out my Stealth. Do you really think that I have not now given myself an unfair advantage?

The point being: for every "LB" car, there are other cars that can be driven almost as fast --- but they don't show up as "LB" cars, because they are not used as much, or they are a fraction of a second slower.

And, let's not forget that, even with a so-called "Leaderboard" car, one still has to be able to drive it... Looking at the Top-1000 times for A-Class at Mugello, for example.

The Elise 135R has 182 of the Top-1000 times (so I'm assuming it's considered a "Leaderboard" car) ranging from #3 to #1000:

    #   3  1:48.255
    #1000  1:50.852

That's 2.6 seconds difference, with the same car!

Browsing through that scoreboard, I see 5 Top-1000 times set with the Volvo S60 R (not a LB car), all of them faster than the #1000 Elise. In fact, the top Volvo time is 1:49.650 ... 1.2 seconds faster. People will complain if someone loads up the "Evil LB Elise," yet not say a word if it's the Volvo. How does that make any sense?

It's far more accurate to talk about "Leader Board Drivers" than cars. If the 96 guys ahead of me on Maple Short spent a little time in that Dodge Stealth, I'd bet 95% of them could beat me.

There are many ways to get an "unfair advantage" in multiplayer races... You say that someone driving a "Leaderboard" car is getting an unfair advantage. It works the other way too - telling the other players that they are not allowed to drive their favorite car, while you drive your favorite car, is, in my view, giving yourself an unfair advantage (or trying to, anyway).

- Don

wow, that is probably the most sensible thing I've read in a while. And I was just about to make a post liek this about the PI system and how it maybe isn't unfair since it takes that stuff into consideration. Good post Don. +100.

My $0.02 though is that yeah, there are cars that can maybe approach an Elise but to get to that time will take an INSANE amount more skill. I drive the hell out of my challenge at Mugello. I mean all day, aplsm sweaty, constantly tuning, eyes hurting, didn't eat for the day, kinda hard driving to get within 1 second of the time i set without breaking too much of a sweat in my NSX. So all round cars can make those times, i have no doubt, but the skill needed....oh man. Those grip cars are just so easy to drive. tail stays in line, you can just floor the gas even with TCS off, you can break so late, its silky smooth. I like my challenge though, I'm convinced I can get it up there, I just have to keep working at it.

Desirsar:

And that's why we're all hoping that Forza 3 will have a "patchable" PI system, so when broad imbalances are found in the times a given build or class of car can turn in on a number of tracks are better than everything else, Turn 10 can find a way to change the PI formula to bring the field in line.  The fun part of that will be all the posts when someone logs into Live and wonders why the PI of all the cars in their garage are suddenly different...

No, the real fun part will be when they log into Forza to find the entirety of the scoreboard times wiped and then check the forums to see they've been labeled a cheater because they bought and upgraded a car the way it was intended to be on the disk. 

You may be hoping for the ability of T10 being able to adjust pi's.  But as someone who remembers the above scenario allready happening with the Elan.....I'm not.

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R.I.P. Pale Rider

CHR15 R0:

I don't have any 'leaderboard cars' in my garage.


In A class it's either my Evo.9 or my Civic Si Coupe.

Hate to break the news to you but that Evo 9 is fairly high on some scoreboards, so by the definition most people around here apply, it is a scoreboard car.

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R.I.P. Pale Rider

Not really sure why I'm chiming in here, but oh well. 

I'm new to the Forza 2 community (~1 month of play).  I LOVE driving/racing games and Forza is hands down one of my favorites.  With that being said, tuning a car from scratch is something well beyond my capabilities.  Although I have a vague understanding of the differnt tuning options and how they should theoretically affect my car, it would take WAY too much time for me to completely tune a car myself to be competitive. After coming home from work, I want to be able to have fun racing and feel like I have a chance to compete for a top-3 spot racing. Therefore, I use some help from others.  I use Fuerdog's calculator for a basic setup w/ some cars.  Some times I've downloaded setups from the LB (much thanks to those who have made there's available--and I completely understand why so many do not, no complaints from me).  I feel like these things have helped make my  Forza experience more enjoyable.  My biggest goal is to become a more consistent and better driver.  If I can get w/in 3 seconds of the LB top time on a track or ~1000 ranking I consider it a personal victory, but continue to push to get better. 

I've said all that to say this:  using a "LB car" or not shouldn't be the determining factor.  I can pull out a Renault 5 Turbo in C-class (most recent example from last night for me), but I still have to be able to be consistent in my driving or it won't matter.  I think the point Don made (I think it was Don) is exactly right.  It's the people on the LB not the cars that are the real advantage/disadvantage.  If I'm in a room w/ R2P or VVV or TRC or any other race team drivers, I'm just hoping to learn from them, not worry about what they're driving.  They're beating me because (right now) they're better drivers than me, not because of the car.  I race to have fun, to learn from better drivers, and to get better as a racer.  In my fantasy world, I'm a race car driver for a living.  In the real world, I'm a math teacher who's trying to be the best driver/racer he can. :)

Sorry for the long-winded post

GeorgiaDawg72:

CHR15 R0:

I don't have any 'leaderboard cars' in my garage.


In A class it's either my Evo.9 or my Civic Si Coupe.

Hate to break the news to you but that Evo 9 is fairly high on some scoreboards, so by the definition most people around here apply, it is a scoreboard car.

The cupra 07's no slouch either...

 

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GT : CORN1SH

Tip :-
Drop gravel into your fuel tank so you can fill up your car for less.

fredflintstone:

GeorgiaDawg72:

CHR15 R0:

I don't have any 'leaderboard cars' in my garage.


In A class it's either my Evo.9 or my Civic Si Coupe.

Hate to break the news to you but that Evo 9 is fairly high on some scoreboards, so by the definition most people around here apply, it is a scoreboard car.

The cupra 07's no slouch either...

 

Now that you mention it I remember a old teammate from TKR put that car into the top 100 on a couple tracks.  Yep, it's a scoreboard car too.

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R.I.P. Pale Rider

GeorgiaDawg72:

fredflintstone:

GeorgiaDawg72:

CHR15 R0:

I don't have any 'leaderboard cars' in my garage.


In A class it's either my Evo.9 or my Civic Si Coupe.

Hate to break the news to you but that Evo 9 is fairly high on some scoreboards, so by the definition most people around here apply, it is a scoreboard car.

The cupra 07's no slouch either...

 

Now that you mention it I remember a old teammate from TKR put that car into the top 100 on a couple tracks.  Yep, it's a scoreboard car too.

 

Racer27 did a 2:08'5 at suzuka two nights ago in it, talking most of the lap aswell....

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GT : CORN1SH

Tip :-
Drop gravel into your fuel tank so you can fill up your car for less.