Spiny Anteater:

Power Tracks: 1) Power 2) Grip (i.e. aero & tyres) 3) Weight reduction (although depending on the starting wieght and grip you might want to swap around 2&3)

This is the only thing I disagree with on your list. Weight ALWAYS comes right after power if you are building a true "missile" car, and tires always come last. A missile car is what you see at the top of the scoreboards at Road Atlanta long, Sebring, and the other speed tracks. An example of a missile car would be the '67 Chevy Stingray in A class or the Plymouth Barracuda in B class. Also, only the rear wing is used out of all the aero, except S class where front aero is used too.

For Delsaber, here is a list of some of the "missiles" that are commonly used throughout the classes. You can find setups for some of them downloadable on the scoreboard (or LB):

D class: '70 Chevelle (LB car), Shelby GT-500, Dodge Charger, Mercedes 300SL

C class: '70 Chevelle (LB car), same as above plus a few others, like the '70 Corvette ZR1

B class: Plymouth Barracuda (LB), Chevy Stingray (LB), Dodge Charger (LB), Ferrari 250 GTO, Pontiac Trans Am, Honda CRX (RWD swap), Toyota Celica, '68 Pontiac GTO, Dodge SRT4, '69 Chevy Camaro SS, the list goes on and on but these are most of the best.

A class: '67 Chevy Stingray (LB), Dodge Charger (LB), Plymouth Barracuda (LB), 35th Anniv. Camaro (LB), Camaro SS, Pontiac GTO (the new one), Toyota 2000GT (LB), Toyota Altezza (RWD), Ford Boss Mustang, and most of the cars mentioned in B class as well as many others.

S class: '69 Ford GT40 (LB), Veilside Supra 99, AB Flug Supra, Corvette C5 ZO6, TVR Tuscan R, others

All of the cars in B and A class as well as the GT40 and C5 Corvette in S class require an engine swap. If it's a GM car, use the LS7. If it's a Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth, use the 540 Hemi. In B-S class, use all engine upgrades and all race platform upgrades including weight redux (sometimes sport brakes are needed, as in S class). Then upgrade tire width/compound at the very end, just enough to keep the car in its class. If there are PI points left over you can buy the lightest rims and/or race brakes if you haven't already.

These cars are all very hard to drive and require a good tune to be usable, and they are usually set up to use only two or a maximum of three gears on any track. TCS is also needed for all but a handful of drivers. If a car has (LB) next to it, then it is a car that holds top 10 times in its class.

As far as grip cars, you always want to use race tires and max tire width, as well as FM2 front and rear adjustable aero (but usually not the rear bumper above B class, depending on the car model--there are several reasons for this). Weight reduction is upgraded before power. And as Spiny pointed out, always buy all race platform upgrades (excluding race brakes for some cars) before you buy anything. TBH I have never seen a grip car that was faster for using a narrower tire width and more power, except where narrower width was needed to use race tires and stay within class.

Building cars may sound complicated, but once you have a general feel for it you'll find that most grip and missile cars are built about the same, with only minor variations.

And DON'T upgrade cams if you can help it because they rob the car of torque and the PI system can't tell the difference. On rotary engine cars, stay away from the engine block upgrades. You may have seen discussion on this already.

 

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Forzacentral ID: pushthelimit

REDLINE TUNER

jaysr:

  TBH I have never seen a grip car that was faster for using a narrower tire width and more power, except where narrower width was needed to use race tires and stay within class. {<- OK, that's meant to be in the quote, but it seems my control of code is even worse than my control of cars}

 It's very rare that you will come across a full-on grip car where you need to lose a bit of grip for power. In my garage at the moment, I can think of one car where that is definitely the case (B Class Sentra which grips like anything, but loses out to a one-legged sloth down the straights) and a couple of borderline examples (Focus ST, PT Cruiser). Of course, I haven't built out every car so there may be some others lurking in the undergrowth.

 Also, a note of clarification regarding the power cars. I drive without TCS and have, erm, slow reflexes so my "power" cars are nowhere near being a missile car, but instead are powerful while still being driveable. I've never built out a full-on missile car so I would definitely recommend following jay's advice if that's your aim.

 Happy tuning

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"I don't make mistakes. I make predictions which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker

Thanks both of you for your input... you actually have very clear and easy way of explaining the complicated world of tuning Well after reading these latest comments I decided to try tuning a ( don't laugh ) Volvo S60-R my first shock was I never reliased it was AWD lol. Anyway for me I think it's a good car to practise with For now I'll most likely be sticking with grip tunes because I have bought a few missle cars from the TM and I find them a real handfull to keep pointing in a straight line let alone trying to go round a bend.

 

Although jaysr... I built your Free tune Ferrarri 250 GTO and did enjoy driving it  I think what I should do is engage TCS I'm kinda stubborn and refuse to use any aids, but I think maybe I should for high HP missle cars. Anyway thanks again for taking time to post your help for noobs looking to get a handle on tuning 

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That's impressive if you can race the 250 GTO without TCS. I did another free tune for a B class speed car that you might like, imo it's easier to drive than the Ferrari. Here is the link: http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/2033374.aspx

And I'm not sure what class you're building the S60R in, but I know that it's excellent in A class as a Mugello grip car. If you'd like a tune to compare yours with when you're done, I have an A class S60 I tuned a couple months ago for Redline that probably won't see release any time soon, if at all. I can PM it to you if you want.

 

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Forzacentral ID: pushthelimit

REDLINE TUNER

jaysr:

That's impressive if you can race the 250 GTO without TCS. I did another free tune for a B class speed car that you might like, imo it's easier to drive than the Ferrari. Here is the link: http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/2033374.aspx

And I'm not sure what class you're building the S60R in, but I know that it's excellent in A class as a Mugello grip car. If you'd like a tune to compare yours with when you're done, I have an A class S60 I tuned a couple months ago for Redline that probably won't see release any time soon, if at all. I can PM it to you if you want.

 

Thanks for the link to that other B class tune I will give it a go maybe tomorrow. Well I built my S60R to B class, and so far so good I think it needs some fine tweaks but one thing I know will need major tweaks is the differential lol. I really have no clue about that at all . Once I'm done and happy I'll send it over and you can tell me what you think 

 

I'd be glad to try out your A class tune, the reason I never went up a class for mine was I thought 300bhp was enough for a Volvo lol. And also I just wanted to try my hand at something which was just in a comfortable zone for me anyway.

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Oh my.

Thank you so much.

This will definitely improve my skills.

I moved from offline to online today.

:( I was playing on my off line account because it wouldn't me play off line without updating! I can't wait to play!  

Delsaber666:

Once I'm done and happy I'll send it over and you can tell me what you think 

 

I'd be glad to try out your A class tune, the reason I never went up a class for mine was I thought 300bhp was enough for a Volvo lol. And also I just wanted to try my hand at something which was just in a comfortable zone for me anyway.

Yeah man feel free to send it over via forum PM as I don't have Live right now. Sending you a PM with the A class tune in 2 sec...

 

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Forzacentral ID: pushthelimit

REDLINE TUNER

Hi jaysr, sorry I haven't had time to try your tune let alone finnish off my own...been a busy bee and just can't get round to sitting down for a few hours and playing around with different settings. Hope to get both my own and yours tested at the weekend sometime...thanks and pedal to the metal man

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No worries man, I too barely turned on the Xbox all weekend.

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Forzacentral ID: pushthelimit

REDLINE TUNER

Thanks for taking the time to put this together. I want to start learning how to tune rwd cars since their my favorite. I've been using that one Excel sheet for a while and it does a pretty good job, but I like to not be so lazy :)

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many thanks for putting together an easy to understand tuning manual for those of us in the forza community who have not got a clue when it comes to tuning.

i have spent many a unhappy hour or three trying to tune a car only to end up facing the wrong way at silverstone.

will try your suggestions

littlechristy 

 

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Fire Fighter for life!

Some tips given here are proven to be incorrect, hence no sticky i think

I tried to start my tuning while back with this guide, didn't really work out. Then I asked Sneaky and he managed to teach me how to tune in one post, lol.

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--> New Gamertag: Perfect Forza <--
Please do not send any XBL or FM.net messages to this account. Inbox will not be checked.

FaCe Pro:

Then I asked Sneaky and he managed to teach me how to tune in one post, lol.

Nice, I wanna see that post lol.

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Forzacentral ID: pushthelimit

REDLINE TUNER

jaysr:

FaCe Pro:

Then I asked Sneaky and he managed to teach me how to tune in one post, lol.

Nice, I wanna see that post lol.

Yeah really, me too, lol.

    Take that car of yours, and run in test drive on Mazda leguna seca.  Get your telemetry on and watch your tires heat up, wear, and change pressure.  You will learn a lot by observing. 

    I have noticed that the first rule of tire pressure is to plan for the future.  The first lap can be more of a hinderance with this mindset but it's worth it.  The basic plan is that your competitors will have their tires set to a preferred pressure at the beginning of the race.  This gives them the advantage at the outset of the race, but has an interesting effect later on.  As the tires heat up the air inside expands thus increasing the pressure.  The pressure inside the tire goes up, the contact patch (where rubber meets road) gets smaller, and the tire compound softens from heat (slick) so handling suffers.  The reduction of contact patch and handling can be counteracted by a keen choice of tire compound, but that's not entirely what we're after.

    As you test drive and watch your telemetry, watch the tire pressure increase.  At about 2-3 laps in your tires will be at a good temp to think about alterations.  If your car is meant to go for long endurance races give it another 3 laps and watch the temperature carefully.  You said that your tires gave out at 2 laps in, so that's our focus.  First you should notice a fluctuation of about 1 to 1.5 psi. (don't know the conversions *sorry*)  This means that you should compesate your pressure at the beginning of the race.

Ex- B700 eclipse gsx runs three laps at Leguna seca with starting pressure of 30 psi. in all four wheels.  3 laps in the front pressure is floating at about 33.25- 33.9 psi. rear at 32.22- .32.5.  I find that for that cars weight (approx. 2,434 lbs curb.) 32 psi. is the optimum pressure for grip.  So I reduce the front tire pressure by 1 psi. and BINGO!  2 laps into the race, and my tires are right where I want them.  If you go against the CPU in career you will see this advantage work every time.  Online... let's just say I haven't invented the wheel on this one. LOL.

     Sounds simple, but there are many other factors to achieveing optimum grip.  It's easy to want to reduce tire pressure for and increased contact patch, or pump up the pressure for decreased sidewall flex or easier drifts.  These all cause unneeded wear, which can be reduced greatly if you have the right tire pressure.

     Now a word about choosing wheels and tire compounds as a set unit.  This means that, for any track specific tunes, or multiple tunes on one car it may be worth looking into buying wheels and tires as a matched set to get the best performance out of the combination.  The primary function of the tire is grip, the primary function of the wheel is leverage.  The byproduct of both is friction and unsprung weight.  Stock wheels are heavy causing extra centrifical force.  This makes breaking harder, puts more stress on the tires, and unwanted weight is added to the car. 

     DO NOT SELECT WHEELS FOR STYLE REASONS ALONE!!! Yeah, it's nice to have pretty wheels, but form should fallow function.  Remember that when you are tuning, you should take account or every PI point.  One very easy way to make more points available, or reduce points to qualify, is to increase your wheel size.  Here is where careful selection of tire compounds and wheels pays off. 

    lets say I have Avon slick tires on that B700 eclipse gsx, but to get rims that would qualify that car I had to get MHT Full size (20"? I can't remember, lol).  Now I benchmark the car.  If it's a grip tune it's not horribly fast, so every tenth of a second counts.  With the tire/wheel pair I have now the car performs well, but I'm watching the start up speed 0-60mph.  The current tune on the car gives it a 0-60 of 4.025 seconds.  (Note: I also notice that the reduced sidewall on the tires allowed the wheels to spin more at take off. This means the unsprung weight of the axle torque was stored in the extra long spokes in the wheels, not the rubber in the tires where it is adds to accelerating friction.  This also means that the tires are more prone to lose contact or "skip" on turns.) 

    Take that same car, same tune, and put Yokohama slicks (lower PI increase than Avon with similar handling) on with 18" OZ (matched by PI with Yokohama tires) wheels.  Benchmark, 0-60 in 3.996 sec.  What else? Reduced centrifical force from the wheels, shorter brake times.  More "damping" of unsprung weight by the tires via the increased sidewall and - by extension - contact patch.  The best part?  The PI increase was the same as the previous set with faster acceleration, deceleration, better cornering and thus reduced tire wear!

    If your tires spin too much, skip, or overheat in turns, I find it's usually a bad combination of tires, wheels, and tire pressure.  I also recommend reducing brake pressure by 5-10% to avoid lock ups and reduce brake distances without sacrificing tire wear.  I'm not an expert tuner, but I'm sure there is someone out there with even more insight as to the effects of brake pressure on tire wear or handling. 

    The great thing about this game is that it's a learning process for everyone!  Please if anyone else has any other input or sees a flaw in the info I have presented,  post and let me know!  I don't want to proliferate incorrect information.  I'm also more than happy to learn new techniques so don't hold back!

 

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MinimaulAK:

So, this tire temperature thing is kicking my behind...

 

I have a solid tune, but it only lasts 2 laps because after the second lap the tires get so hot that they might as well be sticks of melted butter and I slide around everywhere. I adjust the tire pressure lower and I can get like, an extra lap out of it. So, cool. 3 laps great. what if I'm racing 4, 5, 6 laps? I can't even make it half-way around the Nurburgring. What can I do to fix, or mediate this issue? downforce? different tires? The tires heat up evenly, they're within 2-8 degrees the whole time sometimes less. but once I hit that third lap... :( What about wheel size? I put on a bigger (1" bigger, only option) rim and I didn't notice any big difference. What can I do? I have a good tune but it's only good for two laps, how lame is that? It makes hot lapping difficult and racing online impossible.

Sorry, I forgot to include this in my previous post! 

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