Forzamotorsport.net Forums

racingsimjunkie:

DashingLeper:

racingsimjunkie:

...For me the biggest advantage to the wheel is having pedals which enables me to use different techniques for different circumstances/corners, for instance on some corners I prefer to use left foot braking which allows me to blimp the gas pedal while I use my left foot to brake, this keeps the car balanced and allows me to get back on full throttle faster as I don't have to move my right foot from the brake to the gas as my right foot is already over the gas pedal just waiting. ...

Umm— somebody using a controller can always pull the left trigger while blipping the right, you know...

Umm - I am not making an argument against that fact. I simply stated my personal preference and what I find more natural to ME, you know.... At the end of the day in my opinion it all boils down to personal preference.

racingsimjunkie:

...For me the biggest advantage to the wheel is having pedals which ...

Sounds like you were making an argument for that fact. Seemed very odd to espouse a technique that both devices are capable of and still saying the wheel has a bigger advantage because you can do the same thing with it that a controller user can do.

DashingLeper:

racingsimjunkie:

DashingLeper:

racingsimjunkie:

...For me the biggest advantage to the wheel is having pedals which enables me to use different techniques for different circumstances/corners, for instance on some corners I prefer to use left foot braking which allows me to blimp the gas pedal while I use my left foot to brake, this keeps the car balanced and allows me to get back on full throttle faster as I don't have to move my right foot from the brake to the gas as my right foot is already over the gas pedal just waiting. ...

Umm— somebody using a controller can always pull the left trigger while blipping the right, you know...

Umm - I am not making an argument against that fact. I simply stated my personal preference and what I find more natural to ME, you know.... At the end of the day in my opinion it all boils down to personal preference.

racingsimjunkie:

...For me the biggest advantage to the wheel is having pedals which ...

Sounds like you were making an argument for that fact. Seemed very odd to espouse a technique that both devices are capable of and still saying the wheel has a bigger advantage because you can do the same thing with it that a controller user can do.

Please read over what I wrote. Even in the section you have highlighted, note the key words in it - FOR ME the biggest advantage to the wheel. I did not say the biggest advantage to the wheel is, I said for me. I am perfectly aware that you can use the same technique using the controller but could it be that maybe my fingers are too small for the triggers, maybe my fingers are too big for the triggers, maybe I just don't like the feel of the controller in my hands. Countless reasons why the wheel gives ME an advantage over the controller.

Another person might have the complete opposite experience. Maybe their wheel setups leads to discomfort which results in them being slower, maybe their feet are too big or too small for the pedals so the controller gives them an advantage but again I say based on my PERSONAL preference I am faster with the wheel.

At the end of the day it is all about what is fun to you. I am not here to pick sides or to convince anyone that one is better but the wheel is better for me.

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Real Jamaican..... Born Jamaican

Wow, and I thought I took this game far too seriously....

Interesting observations from many people, very interesting.

My opinions, for those that care:
1.  The wheel will provide better control precision over steering inputs than a controller can, and with skill is more likely a superior choice for "skilled" drivers.  Note, that I am NOT saying that one type of controller is better, or particularly faster, than the other.

2.  Input angle vs. slip angle vs. lap time.   I feel that the controller and wheel are governed by the same simulated parameters, and it is thier physical nature that makes thier input/result differences seem unequal.
I think the measured lap time differences some people have observed fall squarly into the area of vehicle speed controlled steering response, and not some unknown programming difference.  The rate of steering input between a wheel and controller should be obvious, but without knowing how immediate or possibly restricted the rate of programed response is, we can't make a definate evaluation/comparison.  The stick may initiaiate the artificial slip angle effect more readily, but that does not mean that attitude control is any better.  The driver's skill has a bigger effect on how this alters the lap time than anything else. 
There are simply too many ways to skin the same cat.

 

People are far too ready these days to overanalyze all of these nuances of programming, inputs, results, parameters, and calculations.  What we fail to take into account much of the time is that there are simply things out there that we cannot control.  There will always be unbelievable drivers with times that defy logic even when those players are bound by the same rules we are. 

Use what works for you, and try to only compete with you own best perfromances, otherwise you may doom yourself to failure. 

 

 

Makes sense Feuerdog +1

feuerdog:

Wow, and I thought I took this game far too seriously....

LOL... you're not alone in this addiction feuerdog.

I barely understand what you said, but you earned yourself a very good rep in terms of vehicle dynamics & how it is represented in FM2, so I'd assume that you are among those that could judge best

It's skill that makes the difference.... and in my experience... the setup one uses has a bigger impact than the controller type...

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GT: FTW Matio

TRC_Scooty:

TRC factory:

BackOne uses the wheel only, so does KimiMatt.

So do I...granted I'm not Kimimatt of BackOne fast, but I will say I'm much better with the wheel than controller.  Once your brain (muscle memory mabye?) learns what every little vibration and sound means, the precision part gets easy. 

If you use the wheel enough you won't be thinking about slip angles and all that junk...you'll just drive and push it the way it's meant to be pushed.

As a wheel user I have to agree. It's hard to argue ABS from V12 because he obviously has some in depth knowladge on going fast, but I find the wheel to be faster, for me. Some one a few comments back said something along the lines of the controller being faster because it responds easier and/or with less input from the driver but I think that's a disadvantage. Smooth = fast. I can be much smoother with the wheel. Most people go back to the controller because they either don't have the patients to work through the (typically) 2 week period that it takes to really get your speed back or because its not comfortable unless you have a racing seat. With the controller I used to sink into my couch and relax. Once I went to the wheel, forget about that, it's elbows up, your neck gets tired if you dont have a high back chair and your working both arms, not one thumb. Some people go back simply because they aren't good enough with the wheel, you have to understand the physics of cars and of racing and how to anticipate changes in the cars balance, not to mention saving an out of controll car isnt very thrilling or hard with the controller, but its work with the wheel and its FUN. I used a wheel for GT4 for a few years and went to the controller for Forza 2. After about 6 months my friend got a wheel and I saw the hard work it took for him to get good again, i also heard how much fun he was having when he started to come around and began competing for wins again. We were having a door banging RACE at King Cobra for 3 laps and as we where coming to the line I realized that I didn't care if I won the race or not because I new that he worked so much harder than I did for it. I started with the wheel the next day and haven't touched the pad since. (i know i cant spell sometimes)

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GT: B Quiet N Drive
Tuner/Painter/Seller for
Ruffneck Engineering

One more thing I'd like to add...If steering was more efficiant with a joystick instead of a steering wheel, they'd be inside real race cars somewhere. Also, ANYONE who gets a wheel and wants some tips, wheel settings, advice or anything please feel free to contact me on XBL. My gamer tag is

B Quiet N Drive

I don't mind helping at all and I strongly encourage people to go with the wheel.

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GT: B Quiet N Drive
Tuner/Painter/Seller for
Ruffneck Engineering

DashingLeper:

Snyder005:

As a dedicated controller user, i would say the wheel is faster, just from experience.  The controller is too twitchy, you lose precious time make little corrections, because it is very difficult to be as smooth on the controller as you can be with the wheel.  On a straightaway in a missile car, with a wheel you can hold the car to a smooth path if it starts wobbling.  With a controller, you have to flick the stick to correct it, sometimes enducing it to turn too much, costing time.  The wheel is much more smoother. ...

I wonder, with time and experience, how effectively smooth a controller can become if you keep the thumbstick pushed forward/backward against the stops. Any left-and-right movement of the stick would be done against the rim of the controller, smoothing the inputs.

Question is, does pushing the stick forward against the rim cancel out the inside deadzone, thus making it difficult just to keep the control centered?

Holding the stick forward would get real annoying after a time, lol.  I have tried this and it is very hard to judge when the stick is exactly straight, and the effects of steering seem magnified.

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GT - V12 Iridium

@Milk...for the record I play with my wheel sitting in my lap in a papasan chair .  I will be getting a Playseat as soon as I have the money and can justify the purchase.

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CT Tuning - Tuner/Hotlapper

Racing games have to provide an assist for controllers, a car couldn't be driven well if the only steering inputs were middle, ful lock left, full lock right. How smoothly and how close to the limits the "auto-steering" is for controller determines if they have an advantage.

In the case of the top sim drivers using steering wheels, it's more of a case of memorizing control inputs for a particular car and track combo. This is almost required in any racing game to compensate for the lack of forces that are felt in a real car.

One alternative would be a radio control transmitter like controller, with 2 larger joysticks. Note the convention for twin stick rc car transmitters is right stick for steer, left stick for throttle / brake, and these controllers pre-date gaming controllers by over a decade. I've seen some console controllers that steer with the left stick, and I don't know what idiot decided to implement it this way, since most people are right handed.

In the case of indpendent axis for gas and brake pedals, top simulation drivers can control lift throttle oversteer and brake bias by braking with the left foot and adjusting the throttle with the right foot. In real life, some drivers left foot brake and do clutchless downshifts, not an issue for racing transmissions.

Regarding tire "responsiveness", I'm not sure if this translates into slip angle or the time it takes the tires to respond to steering inputs. Regarding slip angles and yaw factor, note that yaw angle equals rear tire slip angle, so yaw angle is required. Most high downforce cars use small slip and yaw angles (a large yaw angle is an issue for the downforce generation).

The stiffest tires are used on Indy Racing League cars, with about 2 degrees for optimal slip angle. Formula 1 cars are a bit over 3 degrees. Other cars have a bit more. For a non-downforce solid body car, a higher yaw angle can generate some sideforce from the car's body. Nascar race cars have high downforce, but they are also heavy, and it's easy to see the amount of yaw on these cars.

The highest slip and yaw angles were seen on the non-downforce Formula 1 cars of the 1960's. The 1967 F1 cars (the old PC game Grand Prix Legends is based on these cars) had slip and yaw angles over 10 degrees. It looks as if the cars are drifting through the turns.

For non-downforce cars, bias ply racing slicks have higher slip angles, but they continue to grip well past the limits. Old radial race tires and many street radial tires lose a lot of grip once past the limits, and the suspensions or downforce had to be adjusted to minimize oversteer if grip was lost (for safety reasons). Recent radial race tires are more forgiving and are close to the bias ply racing tires.

 

 

 

 

Interesting thread, makes me want to try the wheel.

 

I may have missed it since i've only read the first page and a little more so far, but did forza make the size of the tire ( aspect ratio ) affect how responsive the tire is?

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I'd never really be able to explain it but I too am much faster with the controller than with the wheel.  Not only that, my driving is MUCH cleaner with the controller.

For me it's not just the slip angle, but the fact that it takes .1 seconds to move the stick from full lock left to full lock right, try doing that with a wheel.

I think the wheel is alot more fun myself, but lately I've shelved it in favor of the "more boring/less realistic" but ultimately faster controller.

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GT: I Kabob I
Flying Lizard Motorsports fan!

kabob983:

I'd never really be able to explain it but I too am much faster with the controller than with the wheel.  Not only that, my driving is MUCH cleaner with the controller.

For me it's not just the slip angle, but the fact that it takes .1 seconds to move the stick from full lock left to full lock right, try doing that with a wheel.

I think the wheel is alot more fun myself, but lately I've shelved it in favor of the "more boring/less realistic" but ultimately faster controller.

Just b/c it takes you .1 second to go from steering left to steering right doesn't mean your wheels are...and that's the whole point.  The controller is buffered for you.  If the wheels went lock to lock as fast as you went left to right you would have zero luck navigating any corners.

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CT Tuning - Tuner/Hotlapper

Nice one!

I drive with the wheel myself and I saw the same thing. Frustrating.

Turn10 should make an option in the scoreboard to select on drivers with wheel. In that way I can see what position you are when you compare yourself with other games with wheel.

 

After reading that I still say I'm faster because I've been playing games since 84 and my thumbs are fantabolous.  Well that and playing guitar for 10 years helps.  But that is my story and I'm sticking to it!

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Truth fears nothing but concealment

discovered the wheel vs. controller issue when rallysport 1 came out on the xbox.  I had been playing it for 6 months, then my girlfriend (wife now!!) asked me to get her the wheel so she could play too, as she hates controllers. (mouse and kb girl).  so I did, and when she was not playing, I started using the wheel, and got soooo fustrated, I struggled and struggled with it, tried all kinds of setting adjustments, then after 3 or 4 months I finally got within 1.5 seconds of the best time I could grab with a controller.  on any race.  itsw a real pain.  I bet if I owened an aracde sit down settup for racing, I could slaughter my best forza controller times.  but it has to do with knowing how to drive a car, then learning that driving with the wheel in a game is completely different.  well unless you drive a jeep cj7, thats about the same as using the wheel in a game.  but the pedals are the culprit in my mind.  figure out how to drive with two feet (I had mine nailed down to a board that attaches to my couch so it doesn't move.) and if you can drive with any skill, you'll conquer the wheel.  me I am not consistent enough to do it (same reason I can't do the edurance races in fm2, I'll run 10 perfect laps, then spin out on every corner on the 11th and destroy the car.)

 

sold my wheel, gone 100% controller now.  I'd love to use the new wheel, but I suck enough in my race times now...

i aint even bothered about laptimes anymore,i just wanna control rwd properly with a steering wheel so it feels more realistic,i get too much of a twitchy thumb to be consistent round corners with the joypad but then i hear stories that the ms wheel sucks so either way i cant win lol

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Yes you are correct on your assesment of the 1st. release of the MS Wheel. However, MS's release of latest version has fixed a great many "bugs".

The controller allows for easier correction of Oversteer while the Wheel requires you to be "....at speed" for the cornors.

I started the Game with Ver.1 Wheel and experienced the very same complaints as you have found. Since purchasing the MS.Ver.2 my competativeness has more than doubled and I've found it to be almost an advantage in Classes "D", "C", and "B". "A" and above however, still require a greater degree of control over Oversteer so a Controller may be easier, but with the new Wheel and a little more time Tuning you will be just as competative, if not able to outperform many Controllers. 

I urge to buy the newer Version MS's Wheel and you'll be more than happy with it.

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" 2nd. means you're 1st. to lose".

No Assists.
Wheel User.

"Live-Space": www.dtaiw.spaces.live.com

kabob983:

For me it's not just the slip angle, but the fact that it takes .1 seconds to move the stick from full lock left to full lock right, try doing that with a wheel.

Again, why would anyone need to do that? Tossing the car around like that will never make you fast ?!?

BTW, I use the wheel... love it... (despite the fact that I broke it the other day). It just feels more real... I'd never change to controller even if I'd be faster...

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GT: FTW Matio

TKR RodGod:

Yes you are correct on your assesment of the 1st. release of the MS Wheel. However, MS's release of latest version has fixed a great many "bugs".

The controller allows for easier correction of Oversteer while the Wheel requires you to be "....at speed" for the cornors.

I started the Game with Ver.1 Wheel and experienced the very same complaints as you have found. Since purchasing the MS.Ver.2 my competativeness has more than doubled and I've found it to be almost an advantage in Classes "D", "C", and "B". "A" and above however, still require a greater degree of control over Oversteer so a Controller may be easier, but with the new Wheel and a little more time Tuning you will be just as competative, if not able to outperform many Controllers. 

I urge to buy the newer Version MS's Wheel and you'll be more than happy with it.

ive been using the 1st version of the wheel since the game has been out and my times are decent but the wheel does act a lil crazy sometimes  .. i heard that the new version came out but didnt know they changed anything with it .. thanks for this info im going to be grabbing  a new wheel soon and see how it compares .. my old one is about dead anyways .. 

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