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LEE EYES:

is there a true replacement for displacement when it comes to engine size. I mean i know technology and design are factors, but if a larger engine where matched in design and technology, would a smaller engine still have power advantages? no idiotic replies please...

The original question, well, here's your answer. The only two real replacements for displacement are either technology (forced induction comes to mind,) and deep pockets (9000 rpm SBC > 5000 rpm BBC)

That is all.

abacacus:

when it comes down to fair comparisons no.

you want to compare turbo fours to NA 8's? how nabout a turbo four's to superchaged 8's? easy 800 horsepower and 700+ foot pound with nothing but the charger and maybe a cam.

 

Thats funny....slap a blower on an LSX motor and make 800whp on the stock block and see what happens...same thing with the Ford motors lol

BOOM --- snapped rods, holes in the block and in Fords case splitting the entire block in half above 500whp

Nice try though...really

Every blown/turbo'd V8 Domestic is running a slew of aftermarket engine components to reach that power level....you might get lucky with an 8.4L Viper on stock block...but the head isnt too great

Watch pinks for a few episodes --- those guys make maybe one or two clean passes and then BOOM -- always blowing/breaking something...makes me laugh everytime

EVO 9 + 3K in BOLT-ONS, no nitrous = 11@117-118 sec passes on street tires add a GT35R turbo and fuel = 10's@129-135 on street tires

Provide us a link to a stock block, real street tire 800whp domestic that runs whatever....Id be curious just to see this mythical beast of a car myself

 

 

That being said when it comes to apples to apples DISPLACEMENT is potential power and having more POTENTIAL power at your disposal is never a bad thing

But more importantly its HOW you get the displacement --- a longer stroke will make more torque across the board and is a better street motor...but the R/S ratio may limit rpm and thus overall horsepower

There is always a balance of bore vs stroke....but if you can have a fat stroke with a 1.7-1.8R/S ratio youll make awesome power

There simply is no replacement for displacement

---

I can design magazine layouts using YOUR Forza photos

Tuner/Test Driver

SergEK9:

abacacus:

when it comes down to fair comparisons no.

you want to compare turbo fours to NA 8's? how nabout a turbo four's to superchaged 8's? easy 800 horsepower and 700+ foot pound with nothing but the charger and maybe a cam.

 

Thats funny....slap a blower on an LSX motor and make 800whp on the stock block and see what happens...same thing with the Ford motors lol

BOOM --- snapped rods, holes in the block and in Fords case splitting the entire block in half above 500whp

Nice try though...really

Every blown/turbo'd V8 Domestic is running a slew of aftermarket engine components to reach that power level....you might get lucky with an 8.4L Viper on stock block...but the head isnt too great

i know you wrote more but in just replying to this:

chevy's limited edition ZZ454 all aluminum crate engine made a little over 800 hoirsepower and 700 foot pound with a few minor mods and a supercharger. on pump gas. i seriously all these 800+ four cylinders can run on pump gas. dont belive me? hot rod magazine did it. if you want the exact dyno numbers just ask, i have the issue they did it in. i can give you the exact modifications as well.

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aba is not amused, sig was removed

Provide us a link to a stock block, real street tire 800whp domestic that runs whatever....Id be curious just to see this mythical beast of a car myself

I can't show you one thats 800whp, but I can show you one thats around 730rwhp.

http://www.tonyscorvetteshop.com/Performance/Projects/001_C6Z.aspx?loc=2007C6Z&id=001

Unfortunately they don't have any pictures of the car, but its a yellow C6 Z06 with black pinstripes down the hood.  I see this car all the time at the car shows in Manassas, VA.  The webpage boasts that they got 615rwhp from 4psi of boost from a Procharger P-1SC, but I believe this car is running 6 psi now and makes approx. 730rwhp on pump gas 93 octane.  The old guy driving it always keeps dyno sheets with the car, so when I see it next time at the car show I'll take a picture of it and the dyno sheets as further proof.

Also, a video is posted on their main page of a supercharged Z06 running 10.67 on stock block as well.
http://www.tonyscorvetteshop.com/index.aspx

To be honest with you, I agree with you 100% about building the motor.  I don't understand how the hell these guys are running even 4 psi on a stock LS7.  That motor is extremely high compression, and it even has to be sleeved because its been bored out to the maximum.  The only thing I can figure is that they retard the timing quite a bit, and the fact that the Z06 has a strong crank, forged pistons, rods, and titanium valves so it can handle quite a beating before giving out.  In my opinion though you can have the strongest built motor ever but if its a high compression motor, you're playing with fire trying to add forced induction to it. 

---

TGM Racing
GT: CNU PhYsIcS

I say yes you can ok you can point out all the 2000bhp stangs but how many exist only a handful due to how hard they are to make and the cost involved. I'd much rather get a late model NSX-R and boost it then bore out a C6 just beacuse of the cost but hey I'm a bit of a penny pincher

---

http://blitz-wing.deviantart.com/ lookie at my perdy pictures

Blitzwing:

I say yes you can ok you can point out all the 2000bhp stangs but how many exist only a handful due to how hard they are to make and the cost involved. I'd much rather get a late model NSX-R and boost it then bore out a C6 just beacuse of the cost but hey I'm a bit of a penny pincher

an NSX-R will be a hell of alot more expensive the a C6. thousands more. easily. unless you buy a rusted hulk. staard NSX's sell for around 60-75 thousand depending on the shape, and i dont even think they sold the NSX-R anywere outside of japan, except maybe britain and even then they would be rare. i would peg a NSX-R over 100 thousand for one in good shape.

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aba is not amused, sig was removed

this is why living in the UK pays off (in a twisted logic kinda way) the price on the C6 is much higher here given they are all imports 50-60K in fact and the NSX-R is the around the same at 50k

but personally I think its a bit mad to spend over 20k on a car but hey that's just me

---

http://blitz-wing.deviantart.com/ lookie at my perdy pictures

PhYsIcS:

To be honest with you, I agree with you 100% about building the motor.  I don't understand how the hell these guys are running even 4 psi on a stock LS7.  That motor is extremely high compression, and it even has to be sleeved because its been bored out to the maximum.  The only thing I can figure is that they retard the timing quite a bit, and the fact that the Z06 has a strong crank, forged pistons, rods, and titanium valves so it can handle quite a beating before giving out.  In my opinion though you can have the strongest built motor ever but if its a high compression motor, you're playing with fire trying to add forced induction to it. 

And thats my point (thanks for the link)

My friends C5 laid down about 525whp with a blower at 12psi and we were PUSHING that block -- as you know 12 psi on a stock LSX motor is very risky -- good tuner though =)

The fact is teh Japanes have done a better job of building their engines --- and  thats no BS --- Rednecks always look at cyl count and displacement and then skoff how its a too small to make any real power

Look at the basics

Forged cranks -- LOTS of block webbing -- large oil passages -- strong main bearings -- large bearing surfaces --- alot of these little Jap blocks are overbuilt for the street in stock form which is why they can handle ridiculout boost levels

Case in point we have the LS7 as one of the few blocks from America that can make 600+whp safely on boost....the 03-04 Cobra with forged internals is another -- duh lol forged internals help

But take a block from say a 1994 Supra --- lean on it and up the boost --- 3.0L/ 980whp --- from a block that was designed in the early 90's!

Stout --- most of them run high rpm and need to be beefy and have strong main bearings for the loads they are seeing at 9000rpm

You wont see your avg V8 motor having the heads, the cam or the rotating components to handle 9000rpm

The Rod stroke ratios are horrible/ the blocks are at 90* creating a weak point and crank failure a reality --- then you have heads that are simply to a fault...as far as effciency goes....

The LSX series has been an advancement but even with the best technology on earth you can only squeeze out so much power when you limit your options

Revs + displacement + head/port flow + forced induction

The higher the revs, the larger the motor, the better the heads and the more PSI the more power (very general)

So while there is no replacement for displacement its not the only factor to consider from a power standpoint....to many guys forget about it but they rarely race outside their realm and stick to grabbing the largest heaviest engine...which is great for a leas sled...not so great for transitions and weight management

My civics have all done fairly well  --- my bolt-on 1.8L was runnin mid 13's on street tires...and was probably good for rock bottom 13's on slicks....were talking I/H/E and a stock 1.8L motor

My friends stock internal boosted 1.8L hatch went 11.70's@118-119 on slicks and about 12psi...he upped the boost later was running low 11's (15-16psi)

Keep in mind the 1.8L was making more than 405whp on stock internals...about 480-490crank from a 1.8L....266hp per liter (I know, nobody cares) but it gives you a reference for strength...so what if a 6.0L GTO put up those numbers on stock block = 1600 crank on stock block @12psi?

Your not going to see a stock block LSX motor make 1600crank -- I would love to be wrong -- but GM would need to beef it up so much that the motor itself would cost WAYYY more than it does --- the point is cheap speed for them and they make them just strong enough while saving money

So for anyone that says they are designed only for economy --- you might want to hit a drag strip sometime and watch some 4 bangers run 9's on stock block ...trust me...performance was designed on that motor from the get go

---

I can design magazine layouts using YOUR Forza photos

Tuner/Test Driver

I hope to god you mean an LS3 or LS7, etc.

LSX blocks are designed by GM to handle 2500+ hp, and 525 is barely scratching the surfce with what you can do with these engines.

If you upgrade the rotating assembly you can push 1000+ if you know what you are doing.

---

I only like blogging if my 360 does it for me!
"It's just road, seat, a**, the end." Jeremy Clarkson

Also, Hot Rod magazine tested 8 crate motors from GM, and the "Mister" ZZ572 that they tested makes 720hp on 110 octane race gas, stock.

---

I only like blogging if my 360 does it for me!
"It's just road, seat, a**, the end." Jeremy Clarkson

howtowakeakar:

Also, Hot Rod magazine tested 8 crate motors from GM, and the "Mister" ZZ572 that they tested makes 720hp on 110 octane race gas, stock.

while i must say thats amazing, keep in mind that engine cant run pump gas, there is a 620 horsepower version that CAN however. add a supercharger to that, watch all the supra's fade in your rear view mirror....

---

aba is not amused, sig was removed

SergEK9:

abacacus:

when it comes down to fair comparisons no.

you want to compare turbo fours to NA 8's? how nabout a turbo four's to superchaged 8's? easy 800 horsepower and 700+ foot pound with nothing but the charger and maybe a cam.

 

Thats funny....slap a blower on an LSX motor and make 800whp on the stock block and see what happens...same thing with the Ford motors lol

BOOM --- snapped rods, holes in the block and in Fords case splitting the entire block in half above 500whp

Nice try though...really

Every blown/turbo'd V8 Domestic is running a slew of aftermarket engine components to reach that power level....you might get lucky with an 8.4L Viper on stock block...but the head isnt too great

Watch pinks for a few episodes --- those guys make maybe one or two clean passes and then BOOM -- always blowing/breaking something...makes me laugh everytime

EVO 9 + 3K in BOLT-ONS, no nitrous = 11@117-118 sec passes on street tires add a GT35R turbo and fuel = 10's@129-135 on street tires

Provide us a link to a stock block, real street tire 800whp domestic that runs whatever....Id be curious just to see this mythical beast of a car myself

 

 

That being said when it comes to apples to apples DISPLACEMENT is potential power and having more POTENTIAL power at your disposal is never a bad thing

But more importantly its HOW you get the displacement --- a longer stroke will make more torque across the board and is a better street motor...but the R/S ratio may limit rpm and thus overall horsepower

There is always a balance of bore vs stroke....but if you can have a fat stroke with a 1.7-1.8R/S ratio youll make awesome power

There simply is no replacement for displacement

no,  a LS engine will handle well over 1000 hp on a stock block.    not stock internals,  but on the stock block.   

an LSX block will handle 2500 hp,   it has been proven.  

LS1 are ok,  early LS engine,   easily capable of running 500 hp on small bolt ons.  
the LS2 is better,  has 50 more hp,  and will out perform the LS1.  
the LS3 is better yet,  has 430 hp stock,  6.2 liters.  all blocks are 6 bolt mains,  and are all aluminum. 
all engines will handle bolt ons without mods,  i see several of them on a normal basis, coming into our dealership.including lingenfelter vettes and lingenfelter packages on the camaros.  
the LS7 is the big daddy,  pushing 427 cubic inches from a small block.   this engine is a real work of art.    and with the LS9 you have a LS3 block with some mods and then with a supercharger on it, running 630 hp stock.      these engines will all handle 700-800 on stock block.  

so there will be no boom.   or a scattered engine.   they all handle severe duty and alot of power reliably.     

---

SergEK9:

PhYsIcS:

To be honest with you, I agree with you 100% about building the motor.  I don't understand how the hell these guys are running even 4 psi on a stock LS7.  That motor is extremely high compression, and it even has to be sleeved because its been bored out to the maximum.  The only thing I can figure is that they retard the timing quite a bit, and the fact that the Z06 has a strong crank, forged pistons, rods, and titanium valves so it can handle quite a beating before giving out.  In my opinion though you can have the strongest built motor ever but if its a high compression motor, you're playing with fire trying to add forced induction to it. 

And thats my point (thanks for the link)

My friends C5 laid down about 525whp with a blower at 12psi and we were PUSHING that block -- as you know 12 psi on a stock LSX motor is very risky -- good tuner though =)

The fact is teh Japanes have done a better job of building their engines --- and  thats no BS --- Rednecks always look at cyl count and displacement and then skoff how its a too small to make any real power

Look at the basics

Forged cranks -- LOTS of block webbing -- large oil passages -- strong main bearings -- large bearing surfaces --- alot of these little Jap blocks are overbuilt for the street in stock form which is why they can handle ridiculout boost levels

Case in point we have the LS7 as one of the few blocks from America that can make 600+whp safely on boost....the 03-04 Cobra with forged internals is another -- duh lol forged internals help

But take a block from say a 1994 Supra --- lean on it and up the boost --- 3.0L/ 980whp --- from a block that was designed in the early 90's!

Stout --- most of them run high rpm and need to be beefy and have strong main bearings for the loads they are seeing at 9000rpm

You wont see your avg V8 motor having the heads, the cam or the rotating components to handle 9000rpm

The Rod stroke ratios are horrible/ the blocks are at 90* creating a weak point and crank failure a reality --- then you have heads that are simply to a fault...as far as effciency goes....

The LSX series has been an advancement but even with the best technology on earth you can only squeeze out so much power when you limit your options

Revs + displacement + head/port flow + forced induction

The higher the revs, the larger the motor, the better the heads and the more PSI the more power (very general)

So while there is no replacement for displacement its not the only factor to consider from a power standpoint....to many guys forget about it but they rarely race outside their realm and stick to grabbing the largest heaviest engine...which is great for a leas sled...not so great for transitions and weight management

My civics have all done fairly well  --- my bolt-on 1.8L was runnin mid 13's on street tires...and was probably good for rock bottom 13's on slicks....were talking I/H/E and a stock 1.8L motor

My friends stock internal boosted 1.8L hatch went 11.70's@118-119 on slicks and about 12psi...he upped the boost later was running low 11's (15-16psi)

Keep in mind the 1.8L was making more than 405whp on stock internals...about 480-490crank from a 1.8L....266hp per liter (I know, nobody cares) but it gives you a reference for strength...so what if a 6.0L GTO put up those numbers on stock block = 1600 crank on stock block @12psi?

Your not going to see a stock block LSX motor make 1600crank -- I would love to be wrong -- but GM would need to beef it up so much that the motor itself would cost WAYYY more than it does --- the point is cheap speed for them and they make them just strong enough while saving money

So for anyone that says they are designed only for economy --- you might want to hit a drag strip sometime and watch some 4 bangers run 9's on stock block ...trust me...performance was designed on that motor from the get go

and now we are back at this argument again.   who in the hell cares about hp per liter.   it means nothing.   

i would love to see someone with a 1.8 honda walk into a ferrari dealer and tell them your engine is better than theres because it had more hp per liter.    they would laugh at you uncontrolably.   
go to a drag strip and tell people that are running 8's and 9's with 500+ cubic inches or even less actually.  

---

When we run out of fossil fuels to power all these vehicles we are all so passionate about............we won't care about displacement.

Let us remember what killed the muscle cars back in the 70's. The Japanese and the Europeans have insanely high gas prices compared to North Americans. But we're getting close to these other countries in price. My first car was a 78 Chevy Nova. Ugly,loud, and rusty......but going up a hill with all my friends in the car, and not having to really step on the gas to maintain speed. That was great. I also used to own a 70 GTO. Again, great car lots and lots of power. But if I still owned those cars today I would not be able to afford to run them. There may not be a replacement for displacement granted. But because of the price of fuel. I think we should start to change our perception that bigger is better.

Case in point. I recently went to Calgary to help out with a race team for the weekend. The guy I went with is a retired race team manager. His dad is in racing and has been for years. So he`s been into racing all his life. When we went, it was in his Chevy pickup (V8). It cost us so much in gas that we could barely afford to put fuel in the car.

If we don`t do something about this hangup on inefficient engines, whatever their displacement. We won`t even have to bother with this discussion.

Sorry to rant and thread jack. But i am tired of seeing all these inefficient vehicles running around with one person driving them, not loaded with cargo or people and idling because people are too lazy to turn them off. Where I live there are alternatives to driving a car. But those alternatives will not get me to work. Nor do they run during the times that my wife works.

If we don`t change our ways all of the passion we have for vehicles and motor sports will be for nothing. F1 is already talking about slowing down the cars, using smaller engines and running alternate fuels. This!! The highest form of racing!! (IMHO)

What will we do when most of us can no longer afford to race cars or even be able to drive.................it is becoming reality for people all over the world.

^+1

you make make the biggest more powerfull engine ever but if you cant run it what's the point

---

http://blitz-wing.deviantart.com/ lookie at my perdy pictures

SergEK9 thats not exactly what I was agreeing with you on.  I don't agree that the LSX motors suck at all, you just made a lot of points there that are completely irrelevant and wrong as well.  My point was you don't put boost on a high compression motor, whether its a V8, a 4-cylinder, a V12, whatever.  Look at any factory boosted car and they all have low compression.  Cobras, the ZR1, the Lightning pickup, Skylines, Supras, all of them are around 8.5:1 - 9.0:1 compression ratio.  Its dangerous to boost a high compression motor because once you hit full boost, you're combusting at such an extremely high rate that its hard on everything inside the engine, especially the pistons and rods.  Those, as well as the bearings, will be the first to go on you.  Even with forged pistons, I still believe its risky, which is why I don't really understand what they are doing to those Z06's to make them run reliable enough to handle the boost.  I mean if it was really ok to put a supercharger on a stock LS7, then Chevy would of went with a supercharged LS7 rather than a supercharged LS3 to put in the new Corvette ZR1.

Your 1.8L 4-cylinder, is not a high compression motor to start, nor does it have forged parts stock.  You can easily put 8-10 psi on that motor without having to worry about blowing it up, but you go any higher without modifying timing or air/fuel you're going to be in trouble.  My point stands for japanese motors too, I've seen plenty of people try and put turbos on stock K20's and blow those motors up because they put too much boost on them, and those engines have forged pistons and rods.  But again, they also have high compression, 11.0:1.  That higher than an LS1 and a tenth higher than an LS2.

Don't remind me about that IrateJester, I don't want to live in a day where I can't enjoy a powerful motor and a car thats fun to drive. 

---

TGM Racing
GT: CNU PhYsIcS

You can run boost on a 9:1 engine, not much, but you can if you have the right parts.

---

I only like blogging if my 360 does it for me!
"It's just road, seat, a**, the end." Jeremy Clarkson

PhYsIcS:

SergEK9 thats not exactly what I was agreeing with you on.  I don't agree that the LSX motors suck at all, you just made a lot of points there that are completely irrelevant and wrong as well.  My point was you don't put boost on a high compression motor, whether its a V8, a 4-cylinder, a V12, whatever.  Look at any factory boosted car and they all have low compression.  Cobras, the ZR1, the Lightning pickup, Skylines, Supras, all of them are around 8.5:1 - 9.0:1 compression ratio.  Its dangerous to boost a high compression motor because once you hit full boost, you're combusting at such an extremely high rate that its hard on everything inside the engine, especially the pistons and rods.  Those, as well as the bearings, will be the first to go on you.  Even with forged pistons, I still believe its risky, which is why I don't really understand what they are doing to those Z06's to make them run reliable enough to handle the boost.  I mean if it was really ok to put a supercharger on a stock LS7, then Chevy would of went with a supercharged LS7 rather than a supercharged LS3 to put in the new Corvette ZR1.

Your 1.8L 4-cylinder, is not a high compression motor to start, nor does it have forged parts stock.  You can easily put 8-10 psi on that motor without having to worry about blowing it up, but you go any higher without modifying timing or air/fuel you're going to be in trouble.  My point stands for japanese motors too, I've seen plenty of people try and put turbos on stock K20's and blow those motors up because they put too much boost on them, and those engines have forged pistons and rods.  But again, they also have high compression, 11.0:1.  That higher than an LS1 and a tenth higher than an LS2.

Don't remind me about that IrateJester, I don't want to live in a day where I can't enjoy a powerful motor and a car thats fun to drive. 

I love how some people bring in CRATE MOTORS that were never installed in a PRODUCTION car lol

They are built by the "race" divisions for racers--- they are also far from your avg "block"

The castings for the block, the internals...EVERTHING on the motor has been changed out for racing duty which is why you pay the hefty price tag for them --- and their forged internals

If you think a stock K20 blows up with boost I can link you to some pretty high whp turbo setups --- as it stands BOTH the F20c and the K20 have seen right around 500whp on ALL STOCK BLOCK INTERNALS....again in the case of a 6.0L Goat your talking 1500whp from your run of the mill production block -- NOT a crate/aftermarket block with a GM part number

There are ways around the high compression Which my 1.8L at 10.7 was pretty high....not 12.5 but still high for a street motor --- the easiest is with specially designed head gaskets which are stronger and thicker obiously to reduce compression --- with these gaskets in place B series motors have seen 22psi and more than 450+whp on stock internals

Everybody loves to say how HP per lier doesnt count because they are always on the losing side of the debate....what you guys fail to bring up is the DESIGN differences and inherent advantages of your avg jap motors structure ....inline design

Being an inline motor, crank strength goes further since side loads are at a minimum, same thing with its shorter stroke and better Rod stroke ratios.....they were designed to be highly effective in the upper rpm band where horsepower is going to peak

So they get to rev higher apples to apples in strength

Even if you used the same strength rods/pistons/crank/sleeves the nature of the inline design will allow for higher revs

Revs + displacement + head flow = power

All else being equal he who revs higher will make more power

BUT there is also a major drawback to this design --- due to a short stroke youll have less torque per cube than a longer stroke motor of the same displacement

Thats the major fork in the road for the avg V8 guy....he drives a 3600-4000lb boat and wants it to move at low speeds (city driving) torque is going to be a focus.....long stroke/small bore/large cubes

When I said LSX I meant the general sense of LS motors I know the "LSX" is a crazy crate motor but for a long time most people got tired of saying LS1/3/6/7 so the X makes it easier

Also from what I undestand of the sleeves on the LS motor I would say the LTs are obviously beefier in that respect (cast iron lol)

But again --- replacing pistons and rods make the motor NOT STOCK BLOCK as in the block/rotating assembly is no longer FACTORY

Thats always been a major concern with OEMs and Import drag racing....GM backs factory teams....Honda/Toyota/Nissan does not

So while GM racers get to enjoy OEM support with upgraded "gm part number race components" that qualify as "factory" parts Japanese racers dont

Case in point the "ecotec" drag racers use parts that are laughably "factory" but since GM cast enough pieces and slapped a part number on it...its now legal to run it

Hard for an avg joe to compete with that....they have millions in budget and you have a day job during the week...nice

Ther original question was "replacement for displacement" --- the simple and logical answer is NO...I have run small motors for most of my life and can tell you the same motor given a longer stroke/larger bore will make MORE POWER everytime

Right now we have a few 2.2L (now 2.4L) H22s making about 280whp (higer octane fuel) but 280whp has been achived from a 2.4L already on pump gas (K24 build) and soon 300whp Naturally Aspirated on pump gas from a 4cyl should be finished.....125whp per liter....or 750whp from say a 6liter all motor or 875whp from say a 7 liter motor.....

While the per liter part is one thing....300whp is 10 sec NA power for a Honda....in street trim and easy 9's for race trim (the race versions already make 375-400whp)

Even if you dont like Hondas a natrually aspirated street trim 4cyl running 10's has to be at least noteworthy.....anyone who drag races and sees the trailer queens roll off and run slower can attest to how refreshing it is to see someone ROLL IN, slap some slicks on and run pump gas street trim 10's All motor....all 2.4Ls of it lol

Ferraris? When you spend enough time around street civics that trap 150+ Ferraris are very nice to look at and admire but if they laughed a quick trip on the freeway would make quick work of your avg poseur in a Ferrari.....hell even the NA street Hondas are trapping 120 or so which isnt exactly slow...

Keep in mind Honda makes the most engines in the WORLD so they know a thing or two about them....here is a PUMP GAS setup....its a 2.0L with pistons/rods changed out....is a 6.0L LS motor gonna make 2100whp with just changing pistons and rods....

 Engine: 2.0 liter ls/vtec, 9:1 compression, gsr head, itr cams, supertech valvetrain, edelbrock intake manifold, stock tb

Mods: FR stage 4 kit, t3/t67 H.O .82a/r, 3" exhaust, no cat, bosch 1600cc injectors, 3.5bar aem map sensor, bosch 044 fuel pump, -8 a.n feed/return lines, aeromotive fpr, gear vs rpm based boost control with mac valve, Neptune

Tuning at 17psi and 27psi on e85:  on the dyno the fuel pump couldny supply enough fuel pressure with the volume needed to support this power level so he should be replacing that pump with a high pressure/huge volume unit....after that they are confident upper 700's will be no problem

http://dynos.evans-tuning.com/700whpe85tune.jpg

---

I can design magazine layouts using YOUR Forza photos

Tuner/Test Driver

Read this month's edition of Hot Rod magazine, you will find they are starting to build a mid 60's 409.  Watch what they do and come back here.

And I will take torque over hp that is at a RPM so high it is not usable everyday.

---

I only like blogging if my 360 does it for me!
"It's just road, seat, a**, the end." Jeremy Clarkson

I love how some people bring in CRATE MOTORS that were never installed in a PRODUCTION car lol

They are built by the "race" divisions for racers--- they are also far from your avg "block"

The Chevy ZZ-series crate motors are not full on race motors, they still have room for improvement that they leave up to the buyer.  They just make a lot of power for a standard motor.  As far as I know all of the motors, ZZ383, 502, 454, can run pump gas.  Look them up yourself.

If you think a stock K20 blows up with boost I can link you to some pretty high whp turbo setups --- as it stands BOTH the F20c and the K20 have seen right around 500whp on ALL STOCK BLOCK INTERNALS....again in the case of a 6.0L Goat your talking 1500whp from your run of the mill production block -- NOT a crate/aftermarket block with a GM part number

When I'm talking about a street car like this, I'm referring to a car that is boosted and can run pump gas.  Those C6 Z06's corvettes I was showing you that are making 600-730rwhp are running pump 93 octane gas.  Those C6 Z06's, are street cars.  I know the cars you are talking about with the K20's making high horsepower, but they are also running octane booster or methanol injection systems.  If you can't run pump gas anymore, in my opinion thats not a street car anymore.  Gas prices are high enough as it is, now you are forced to buy expensive additives to mix with the fuel.  A K20 trying to make 500whp on the stock block with just running 93 octane, that will give out on you very quickly.  Sure you can lower the compression by putting in thicker head gaskets, but now the engine isn't exactly 100% stock anymore.  Those C6 Z06's I was showing you do not do that.

No where will you see anything I wrote here referring to full on drag cars, thats not what I was originally getting at.  You wanted to see a car making extremely high horsepower running on the stock block, and I showed you a car doing that.  That is a street car doing that, not a full on drag race-prepped car.

Also from what I undestand of the sleeves on the LS motor I would say the LTs are obviously beefier in that respect (cast iron lol)

The LS motors are not sleeved, only the LS7.  Of course the LT motors will be better to handle boost because they are cast iron.

Ther original question was "replacement for displacement" --- the simple and logical answer is NO...I have run small motors for most of my life and can tell you the same motor given a longer stroke/larger bore will make MORE POWER everytime

Agreed

Ferraris? When you spend enough time around street civics that trap 150+ Ferraris are very nice to look at and admire but if they laughed a quick trip on the freeway would make quick work of your avg poseur in a Ferrari.....hell even the NA street Hondas are trapping 120 or so which isnt exactly slow...

Again, not even close to what you and I were originally discussing.  I just mentioned you don't put boost on a high compression motor, V8, 4cyl, V12.  I would imagine Ferrari puts quite a bit more engineering into their V12's than Honda puts into their designs anyways.  They aren't drag racing vehicles either, so comparing that to some modified car built for drag racing is pretty retarded.

The point the other guy was trying to make about the GM LS series motors is that the block is built to handle 1500 hp.  No, you'll never see anyone do that on a stock engine, but you keep trying to talk trash about that motor as if its not designed well and you're wrong.  If these LS-series sucked as bad as you are trying to say they do, then why don't people swap K20's into RX-7s, Porsche 944s, Mazda Miatas, etc, instead of an LS1?

 Engine: 2.0 liter ls/vtec, 9:1 compression, gsr head, itr cams, supertech valvetrain, edelbrock intake manifold, stock tb

Tuning at 17psi and 27psi on e85:  on the dyno the fuel pump couldny supply enough fuel pressure with the volume needed to support this power level so he should be replacing that pump with a high pressure/huge volume unit....after that they are confident upper 700's will be no problem

And you just proved my original point right there, 9.1:1 compression.  You don't boost a motor uness you have low compression pistons.  Thats all I was ever trying to get at.

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TGM Racing
GT: CNU PhYsIcS