Forzamotorsport.net Forums

Re: Everybody

Just like Big_o_xxx mentioned in his last post-

“I still put it in just to keep testing it and the lag with loading is getting progressively worse. It also freezes more often now.”

This is something that everyone who is serious about getting to the bottom of the s**t needs to be doing. First create a baseline, which means that you do the same thing every time you play the game. Load it up, pick a car, and drive a track, or circuit, or series of circuits and record what happens. Then once you identify a pattern, move on and try something else, such as browse your garage, or try different cars on the same track. Or go into your garage, and buy some upgrades, or paint, or tune, or whatever, then load a track and race. Etc. Etc. But maintain a baseline until you see the pattern. Just do the very same thing over, and over again.

BUT DO NOT GO ONLINE.

In fact just disconnect your box from the wire. Because if you don’t, you become susceptible to alternating patches. Which will reset your baseline.

I’ve been doing this ever since my game degraded to the point that I’m fortunate if I can get past the boot screen. It started with a single freeze in an endurance race, and slowly over time simply shut the game down to what it is now. A one race game if I’m lucky. Which may, or may not save.

Since I work at home I’ve been booting the game several times a day, and my results are that there is a resolute pattern to the freezes that have nothing to do with how many cars you do, or do not have in your garage. Nor does it have anything to do with how hot the console, or power brick get. It is in fact a timer based random generator algorithm. It does the same thing, in the same places, though there are several potential outcomes at each juncture. I even freeze at exactly the very same place on individual tracks using the same cars, though there are several places on each track, which are again randomized.

I know it sounds a little “get a life”, but the thing you see that has stuck in my craw since this thing began, was how does code degrade. Because code is fixed, and a processor can either process that code as interpretive information, or it can’t. Or, becomes so loaded up that it can’t process the accumulative information flow through it’s pipeline. Which would cause “random” freezes.

Now the first argument is always the- “Your box is dying dude, the RROD is coming man.” But not so, because every other game I own still plays perfectly fine. In fact Forza 2 is also perfectly stabilized in it’s freezing pattern. Which if it had played that way from the moment I popped it the box (Which by the way some new disks are suddenly doing). We could write it off as bad coding, or faulty disk pressing.

BUT!

I must have played over a hundred hours of Forza 2 offline without one freeze, until I hooked up to MSLive to begin my online career, and the download of death swept in. Again hitting in a random pattern across the globe. Now I’m not a tech geek, so if someone out there can explain to us all how code on a disk slowly over time degrades into a fixed reformatted code on it’s own, please, I’m all ears.

Because if you really stop and look at the complexity of everything that is happening in this game, all at the same time. You understand real quick that some very, very smart people put this thing together. Which to my mind means that they should be perfectly capable of identifying, and correcting something as simple as this freezing thing (if they wanted to). Because that’s what they do, they write and check code. That’s what they do. They write code.

You see, it’s like it always is, the truth is right in front of our face. We just have to be willing stare down the lies to get to it.

Remember, we are dealing with some very, very smart people here.

People who write and implement code.

Very good post ToolerThanTool, you have a lot more patience than me because ive given up even trying to play forza 2 months ago. My copy even crashes when I dont sign in and play as the guest. I

Every other game is working fine :D, I cant see turn 10 putting any resources into fixing it now. Personally I dont see how they can simply dismiss thier problem, they NEED To know what this problem is so that they dont reproduce it in the next forza.

BUSTED ASS GAME!!!

That's what I get for trusting T10 with my realistic gaming fix until the next GranTurismo title came out.

I will admit I was impressed with Forza 1 when it came out and thought that the second one would become a staple in my video game favorites. In fact I bought my xbox360 6months earlier than I had orignally planned, just to play Forza 2. OOPS.  I stopped playing this thing even before the other reason for owning the 360 came out. Working at a dealership, taking car's to the track, and even working on friends and family's cars when they needed fixing was supposed to be supplemented by a great race simulation that would help keep me in my zone even while trying to relax. That didn't happen. Somebody *** up. Somebody's gonna get fired. And thank God for Gamestop.

 

 

......bitches 

There is no way anyone can say that forza 2 is not a fantastic raceing sim.
There is no way that anyone can say that forza 2 is working correctly for everyone who owns a copy..
I`m on my second xbox so i should know.
But with all this hi profile stuff as regards "i`m going to sue you, blah blah blah"
Have turn 10 or microsoft made a statement as regards this-NO!
Does this mean that it makes them look like faceless money grabbing ++++-YES!
Will gamers buy turn 10 products or even forza 3 in the future-NO?, YES?, MAYBE?
Will this issue ever be resolved-NO i dont think so?
Will the mods of this site reply to this thread-NO thats for sure
Dan Greenawalt (top man at turn10)do you give a toss-No way his pockets are well lined why would he give a toss! <<<<if i could find this mans email address that could be intresting LOL

Its seems strange that m$ have made no statment, that the mods never post on the site,  do they know they messed up with this game and all been told to keep quiet and not say a word for fear they will lose millions and loose there jobs.
They never mention about problems in the pit reports.
I at the moment other than the banned from AH am actually managing to play forza2 without any problems.  I am addicted to the game i admit it, and even though i know that it may bollox up my secound xbox i am willing to take the chance....but as soon as it goes again i`ll be the first on here to complain LOL.

I feel for everyone who has problems, and man life sucks sometimes, but people turn 10 dont give a toss.
Face it this one is never going to get fixed........i`ve given up hope.
If they did care about customer service they would of posted a statment buy now.....surely.....

Anyway i wish all those with problems with the game (me included, my ban from the AH) the best of luck, I will be playing forza till at least xmas as my mrs has told me i`m not to buy cod4 so i think that maybe what santa is bringing me, well he better had or santa will be getting a punch on the nose.
I have been looking around trying to find the emails of dan and the rest of his team but to no avail.

p.s.happy birthday xbl looking foward to the dashboard update on dec 4th (does that come with a forza proof fix)????LOL

aurac2006:

There is no way anyone can say that forza 2 is not a fantastic raceing sim.
There is no way that anyone can say that forza 2 is working correctly for everyone who owns a copy..
I`m on my second xbox so i should know.
But with all this hi profile stuff as regards "i`m going to sue you, blah blah blah"
Have turn 10 or microsoft made a statement as regards this-NO!
Does this mean that it makes them look like faceless money grabbing ++++-YES!
Will gamers buy turn 10 products or even forza 3 in the future-NO?, YES?, MAYBE?
Will this issue ever be resolved-NO i dont think so?
Will the mods of this site reply to this thread-NO thats for sure
Dan Greenawalt (top man at turn10)do you give a toss-No way his pockets are well lined why would he give a toss! <<<<if i could find this mans email address that could be intresting LOL

Its seems strange that m$ have made no statment, that the mods never post on the site,  do they know they messed up with this game and all been told to keep quiet and not say a word for fear they will lose millions and loose there jobs.
They never mention about problems in the pit reports.
I at the moment other than the banned from AH am actually managing to play forza2 without any problems.  I am addicted to the game i admit it, and even though i know that it may bollox up my secound xbox i am willing to take the chance....but as soon as it goes again i`ll be the first on here to complain LOL.

I feel for everyone who has problems, and man life sucks sometimes, but people turn 10 dont give a toss.
Face it this one is never going to get fixed........i`ve given up hope.
If they did care about customer service they would of posted a statment buy now.....surely.....

Anyway i wish all those with problems with the game (me included, my ban from the AH) the best of luck, I will be playing forza till at least xmas as my mrs has told me i`m not to buy cod4 so i think that maybe what santa is bringing me, well he better had or santa will be getting a punch on the nose.
I have been looking around trying to find the emails of dan and the rest of his team but to no avail.

p.s.happy birthday xbl looking foward to the dashboard update on dec 4th (does that come with a forza proof fix)????LOL

Actually, man, I talked to the guys at M$ last night for 2 1/2 hours trying to get this sorted (to no avail) and got all the answers we need.

It'll take me hours to write it all down so check back later for the big version.

But I'll give you a few bits in short:

1.  NO, you're not going to find any help here.  The Mods are useless and Turn 10 knows theres no solution to the problem.  Microsoft themselves is running damage control on this one.
Call xbox live and complain, (especially about the lack of customer support on the forums.  They're super pissed about that.)
I know for a fact that I just got Che Chou in a buttload of trouble last night.
I'll elaborate on this later, but I must admit that I was impressed with everything M$ did to try and restore my access tot he Forza Servers.  Too bad it didn't work.  Most likely going to get a copy of H3 for my troubles.

2.  The problems with freezing, corrupted saves, and missing track textures come from faulty AI algorithims that sometimes refuse shut down after a race, and instead, supposedly keep on running, using up the available ram.  One in particualr, M. Rossi, refuses to stop learning and they knew this during development.

3. in response to the above post,  Dan Greenwalt can't really be held directly responsible, (he's the lead DESIGNER, it's the game developers that screwed the pooch here.  Just like they do with all other M$ products.  How quickly we forget the Windows Vista/ longhorn fiasco.  (How about Windows Millenium?  Anyone?)
Dan's vision for this game was massive in scope and he simply tried to push the technology too far with what he had available.   After reading some of his comments regarding these issues, it promted me to go back and read all of the interveiws with  him, both public and behind-the scenes.
I've got alot of respect for the guy and what he tried to bring us here.
He's probably got an ulcer right now from getting screwed over by the coders he was employing and getting left standing with egg on his face.
I'll post more on that later.

4.  It's NOT ever going to get fixed.  According to the guys at M$, this game is quickly becoming a PR nightmare and with the 2-3 million or so copies that are going to ship worldwide with the holiday bundle, it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.
It's now a freebie, and alot of retailers have stopped carrying the game altogether.
There's really no reason for continued support and you can see that from the way things are already going, Turn 10's pulling out of here.
If what I was told about the upcoming DLC is true, and I don't see why it shouldn't be, releasing Road America and Rio De Janerio as DLC (unless it's free) is just going to add to the negative image already being percieved about turn 10.

Plus Forza 3 won't be out until the next console is released.  Dan's waiting for technology to finally catch up with his vison.  You can bet your sweet ass that FM3 will take it's sweet time being put together (that is if ol' Dan keeps his jod thruought this fiasco.  Probably will.  He's a good guy and a great game designer.)  Most likely, his team will be working on the next PGR while they wait for the next console to get developed.  They're probably already moving on.

It's a wash guys.
No point in carrying it on anymore.

But do check back later when I have more time to elaborate on this as I found out some really interesting stuff.
Mostly I want to point it out to SkateZilla as he is so far off base with his troubleshooting methods and has absolutely no clue as to what these issues stem from.

I on the other hand, got it sorted and I can use words that came directly out of Dan Greenwalt's mouth to elaborate on this.

See you guys later.

(And Tooler, make sure you check it out 'cause you of all people would be interested in most of what I found out.  I totally found out how the code can degenerate over the course of playing the game.  It's really not an on-off, mathmatically linear system of algortihims here.  FM2 has a really fancy neural system of processing inforamtion in place for calculating things like performace index and what not as well as a huge engine for running the physics and calculating multiple infentessimal things like load pressue on your tires when they're set to 28 psi instead of 30 psi and when you continuously save these things to the profile and the algorithims are still calculating, you get the freezes and the crashes, etc..  It's the cars parts and the tunings that are responsible, NOT the vinyls.  Couple the huge calculator with the rougue AI and you've got the disaster that we know to be FM2.   In Turn 10's defense, it would've taken exorbitantly long to test it fully to see exactly how it was going to react to long term play.  It's the main reason some of us got hit and some of us didn't, but trust me, ALL of us are succeptable to it.  It all depends on how you play the game.)

You are under the assumption that moderators are Tech support,all we do is make sure the forums are run smoothly.

I think Skatezilla is the only mod who has an understanding of these problems and he posts here frequently trying to help.

 

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GT SilentAndy81

RE: Big_o_xxx

Way to kick ass man!

And I would very much like to hear more about this ”neural programming”, and why it’s how you play the game that shuts you down. So as I can create yet another baseline to see if they’re finely starting to come clean, or just shoveling a different load of s**t. So please save me the hours of redundant dialog with MS phone dialup damage control, and really break it down. Because I’ve been out on the boards under several assumed aliases questioning people about how their game is running, and most of them aren’t having any problems at all yet. Though some are admittedly well into a hundred plus hours of both on, and offline play. Most also seem to be using their garage to paint, upgrade, and tune all, or most of their cars.

So if I understand what MS has told you, if you play a certain way the odds are good that you won’t encounter any problems? But if you play another way, the game will explode in your face? That it still boils down to it being somehow our fault? Not that Forza 2 is a POS, but that if we had just played a certain way we would be one of the “still many” lucky ones that even now get to play? I mean, if they really know this, then what is the way? What is the “right” way to play?

Details, details, details, the devil is always in the details.

Because if the problem is that certain AI racers are corrupting the saves after race completion- WHO ARE THEY? Because if we knew that, we could simply avoid them altogether. And if it’s the inability of the processor to handle the information loading from the physics engine, how would that explain the freezes in running a tuning test drive track in a stock car with no one on the course but you? Or why the cars freeze in exactly the same place on each track? Though there are several places on each track, that randomly cause the freezes. Or why, once again that there are still a whole lot of people with no problems at all?

The question still remains unresolved- Why are some people still racing with no problems since launch date, and others can’t get one circuit completed before melt down? Yet others play a hundred plus before the countdown to nothing left to play begins?

Remember Big_o_xxx, you’re taking the word of people that are knowingly putting a game that they admittedly say is an unfixable POS in hundreds, if not thousands of holiday game bundles. Yeah, Merry Fagging Christmas from Microsoft.

This all sucks and "Turn your back on them 10" suck big time,  i for one will NOT! be buying another game made by these jokers, lets hope Forza 3 gets made by some other company, and Biggy, i'll be phoning M$ later today to complain about the lack of support form these muppets.

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GT- SFF1 Schumacher.
-x- Ferrari 355 F1/Toyota Supra -x-
-X- MS F1 King 1991-2006 -X- Tia + Baby Britney xxx. -X-

I registered here because my brand new 360 (Premium bundle, Lot 739) has turned into a constant freezing mess while playing Forza.

I'm only at about a 14 Driver level, with 13 cars or so.  What started out fine (I played for a couple hours with no problems at first) ended in a freeze.  Restarting only ended in a freeze in continually shorter time intervals.  Now, starting the game will result in a freeze.  Simply trying to enter the Arcade section, or starting a Career Race, instant freeze.

My question is this: I'm gonna call MS to *** and get  a new disc, will this fix the problem, or is the problem tied to the save system?


PS.  No freezing on any other games.

RE: knocko94

I feel you, but I’m afraid this freezing thing is a pretty complex issue. You should read through this entire thread to better understand

You can call MS if you want, and they’ll play the good cop to Turn 10’s bad cop, but in the end nothing will actually be resolved. Everyone involved with this freezing fiasco is by this time pretty well versed in the BS they have going to run damage control on this one.

But the truth is nobody’s (meaning us John Q Public types) really sure just what the hell is going on here. But one thing you can be absolutely sure of is MS was totally, completely, and utterly aware that Forza 2 was a first class POS when they put it their Holiday Bundles. So if you want to take their word on anything after a move like that, feel free.

Personally. I’ve already disposed of my 360 (smashed into tiny little bits on my back patio, and DAMN that felt good- I AM SPARTACUS!) , and have purchased a 80gHD PS3 with an order in for GT Prologue, Japanese style, coming out next month. I know I’m going to miss out on some great s**t, like Mass Effect, but Heavenly Sword was a blast!. You see some of us can only take the knife in the back, and the rod up the *** to a point, before we would rather do without than sell out our pride any longer.

It’s a shame, because if you’re a fuel blooded race sim junkie, Forza 2 was a great idea for a game. Whereas Gran Turismo 5, well, what can anyone say- It Is The Game.

This isn't directly about Forza but I thought it was interesting:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2007/11/21/Microsoft_s__Halo_3__Game_Crashes_The_Xbox,_Class_Action_Claims.htm

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A small but vocal customer...

As one of the many users who lost 50+ hours of gaming when my entire career deleted itself, I'm glad I've read this thread and in particular, Big_o_xxx post above. Superb.

I'll check back when you post some more detail as I've been lobbying quite hard on the very same issue. Regardless of what happens, (and I love FM2) I will never buy another product from this game studio.

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Take it flat

GT: THE MORGANATOR

"Plus Forza 3 won't be out until the next console is released.  Dan's waiting for technology to finally catch up with his vison."

You underestimate today's technology. The 360 is more than capable of his dream for Forza to be accomplished (that is until he dreams bigger, lol). The next console probably won't be out for a long time. They are beating the PS3 by far, so they really have no buisiness need to make the next console too quickly. There is too much time between now and the next console for them not to make Forza3 for the 360.

I've never had the game freeze before about 5 or more cars in. It makes me question how it loads the cars. It seems like it loads the car and keeps it loaded. When you move to the next car it stays loaded and loads the current one, and so on. If that's the case, it would be best if there were a way to make it only have like 1-7 cars able to be loaded at a time. Dropping an old one everytime a new one is loaded. That should control the excess memory usage.

I think the game was just rushed. It's apparent in the car models (for instance: The McLaren F1 GT is very innacurate and the old Charger only says "R/" on one of the sides instead of "R/T."), the fact that they couldn't get all of the tracks in, the cars that were dropped just prior to the release, etc. They should have spent more time testing, polishing, making sure everything was accurate, and finishing unfinished work. I don't know if there are many innexperienced guys in Turn10, but this game just wasn't made to the standards they set verbally.

Don't get me wrong, I've loved every minute of actually playing it, but when I can't get passed the garage, it makes me feel like I've been mislead (in a number of ways), and that's not a good feeling when you respect who you feel has mislead you. I just want a game that works right and makes me glad I bought it (one other than The Orange Box).

I'm considering not spending money on the car pack or Motegi because I sometimes can't play the game I want to get it for because it freezes too much. I don't know why there is always some huge problem with what would otherwise be the best of a genre.

All I can say to Turn10 is: Bring us Forza3, please. It's a chance to correct your mistakes and get back your fans' respect, support, and, because this is a buisiness, money; just don't make us regret giving you our money. No matter how long it takes, do it right.

Thanks...

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third time lucky eh???

I do love this game STILL but it so seems to have been slopped together real quick and rushed onto the shelfs, bad move.

I will NEVER complain when a game is delayed again (e.g Burnout Paradise a year late nearly, GTA shelved till next year, etc) Id rather it be right then bugged out

Regarding comment on 360 beating PS3, my personal opinion is "At present maybe but for how long" PS3 is picking up pace and has more than enough power to shine, although very slowly lol!! I've got one and must say if a game is on both consoles and a online game I always go 360 due to PS3 FREE online service being the pits

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Shane2006UK:

Regarding comment on 360 beating PS3, my personal opinion is "At present maybe but for how long" PS3 is picking up pace and has more than enough power to shine, although very slowly lol!! I've got one and must say if a game is on both consoles and a online game I always go 360 due to PS3 FREE online service being the pits

Not that long ago, the 360 passed the PS3s sells in Japan, which was the only place the PS3 was doing decent. In Europe and America, the PS3 is no where close. Altogether the 360 has sold double or more than double of what the PS3 has sold. Currently, with the new PS3 version and a couple new games, Sony is making what I consider to be their last big push to try to redeem the PS3 from it's current position as a total failure. I would say Blu-Ray is keeping it alive, but that's not exactly true. Blu-Ray is keeping it expensive. I think with or without Blu-Ray the PS3 would be in this position and I can't see it getting any better.

Well, back on topic.

You're right, never again complain about a delay. Lol.

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Still no comment turn 10?

Everyone thats having problems do this, save this thread to your hard drive like me. When they hype up forza 3 be ready to spam the forums with this thread.

The customer support from Turn 10 has been nothing but disgusting from day 1.

After all the time i posted this thread not one person from Turn 10 has even bothered to comment/say sorry etc.

I have never ever seen such shocking customer support in my life.

Remember people, Turn 10 took your money KNOWING this game was going to run into these problems, they are laughing at us all.

Save the thread and dont let them forget it next time they release a half arsed game.

 

Don't be immature.

sg1975:

Everyone thats having problems do this, save this thread to your hard drive like me. When they hype up forza 3 be ready to spam the forums with this thread.

No. I will not spam the forums with Forza2's problems when Forza3 is released. I'm looking forward to Forza3 as it will either correct their mistakes and be great or it will be the reason I and many others say goodbye to Turn10.

sg1975:

After all the time i posted this thread not one person from Turn 10 has even bothered to comment/say sorry etc.

No one wants an apology. A simple statement on whether or not they can or care to fix it will do just fine.

sg1975:

Remember people, Turn 10 took your money KNOWING this game was going to run into these problems, they are laughing at us all.

No one took anyone's money. We made the choice to buy it and they didn't expect every problem they had. They are definitely not laughing at us, and to say they are is pure stupidity. No one laughs when they make a flawed product and their consumers are unhappy. It's not good for business, so if anything they are worried or moving on to the next thing.

sg1975:

Save the thread and dont let them forget it next time they release a half arsed game.

Growing up and moving on is a much better option.

Some of you disappoint me more than my garage freezing. *Rolls eyes*

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What a bunch of brain dead chatter!

How dare anyone get on this thread and tell anybody else what, or how to think. This is exactly what the money grubbing mutts who created this whole train wreak want. For us to take it out on each other. It’s called politics boys and girls, and that’s how the fat cats keep the peasants in line. Read a history book for god’s sake. Divide and conquer, it’s an old tactic. I like xbox, I like playstation. They took my money, no they didn’t. It’s black, no it’s white. It’s like watching a tennis match where we all just keep batting our real freedom of choice back and forth with our little backhanded swings, for the amusement and entertainment of the power and control freaks who put us in this pit to begin with.

They create and maintain a society that imbues us with a trunk-load of day to day insecurities, then they let us pick a side. They don’t care which, because any side will do as they are all just gears in the same big machine. Thus they ensnare us in this illusion of freedom, thinking we’re enacting our own will. That what we think, and what side we choose vicariously empowers us in some way, and then they pit us against the other side. They teach us this from day one- compete, conquer, or die. They turn our baser instincts, our primitive mind against us. They play us against one another with brand names, and team colors. It’s an Alfa-monkey thing. It’s a misdirection thing.

My Grandfather was old school, and he made it real simple for me. If you lie, you’re a liar. If you steal, you’re a thief. If you f**k somebody over, you’re a f**ker. It’s a FACT thing. Opinion is just us convincing ourselves we’re right, and that what we think to self sooth actually matters. That it actually makes a real world difference. That it actually connects with anything but our own reflection.

Bottom line, you can take out your color crayons and pull out your favorite team shade. Then you can color it up real good, never once coloring outside the lines. But that’s not going to change the FACT that Turn 10 and Microsoft flat out knowingly ripped us all off with this POS game, and how anybody wants to deal with that it wholly and completely their own business.

In other words, deal with the facts, and leave all the opinionated self empowering BS in your own pocket where it belongs. Unless of course you’re a shill for the house, then grind away. Because if the truth means that little to you, there’s sure as hell no changing you now.

Feel free to take it, or leave it of course.

ToolerThanTool:

What a bunch of brain dead chatter! How dare anyone get on this thread and tell anybody else what, or how to think. This is exactly what the money grubbing mutts who created this whole train wreak want. For us to take it out on each other. It’s called politics boys and girls, and that’s how the fat cats keep the peasants in line. Read a history book for god’s sake. Divide and conquer, it’s an old tactic. I like xbox, I like playstation. They took my money, no they didn’t. It’s black, no it’s white. It’s like watching a tennis match where we all just keep batting our real freedom of choice back and forth with our little backhanded swings, for the amusement and entertainment of the power and control freaks who put us in this pit to begin with. They create and maintain a society that imbues us with a trunk-load of day to day insecurities, then they let us pick a side. They don’t care which, because any side will do as they are all just gears in the same big machine. Thus they ensnare us in this illusion of freedom, thinking we’re enacting our own will. That what we think, and what side we choose vicariously empowers us in some way, and then they pit us against the other side. They teach us this from day one- compete, conquer, or die. They turn our baser instincts, our primitive mind against us. They play us against one another with brand names, and team colors. It’s an Alfa-monkey thing. It’s a misdirection thing. My Grandfather was old school, and he made it real simple for me. If you lie, you’re a liar. If you steal, you’re a thief. If you f**k somebody over, you’re a f**ker. It’s a FACT thing. Opinion is just us convincing ourselves we’re right, and that what we think to self sooth actually matters. That it actually makes a real world difference. That it actually connects with anything but our own reflection. Bottom line, you can take out your color crayons and pull out your favorite team shade. Then you can color it up real good, never once coloring outside the lines. But that’s not going to change the FACT that Turn 10 and Microsoft flat out knowingly ripped us all off with this POS game, and how anybody wants to deal with that it wholly and completely their own business. In other words, deal with the facts, and leave all the opinionated self empowering BS in your own pocket where it belongs. Unless of course you’re a shill for the house, then grind away. Because if the truth means that little to you, there’s sure as hell no changing you now. Feel free to take it, or leave it of course.

The world is flat, big foot is real, Turn10 and Microsoft have an agenda and robbed us knowingly! Dang conspiracy nuts. Stop doing drugs, they're bad for you.

No wonder people say this forum is bad. I'm out.

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RE: EvilsClutch

I rest my case- The Monkey Lives!

So get in line, because there is a butt in front of you with your name on it, and by the way, I’m really sorry your world is flat.