Forzamotorsport.net Forums

GeorgiaDawg72:

Desirsar:

The fun part of that will be all the posts when someone logs into Live and wonders why the PI of all the cars in their garage are suddenly different...

No, the real fun part will be when they log into Forza to find the entirety of the scoreboard times wiped and then check the forums to see they've been labeled a cheater because they bought and upgraded a car the way it was intended to be on the disk. 

You may be hoping for the ability of T10 being able to adjust pi's.  But as someone who remembers the above scenario allready happening with the Elan.....I'm not.

That assumes they won't learn for their mistakes in design of the scoreboard database.  I think it'll be improved for the next game such that they can target cars in a given class or all classes that are affected "upward" (same parts under a revised PI result in a higher PI) and only posted times with those cars will be wiped instead of whole gamertag's boards and Trueskill.  Of course, the big thing I want in the next game is the removal of the PI "mask".  U class can still be 1000+, but they really need to display PI for every car, all the way up, and including purpose built race cars.  (If you build cars with particular parts, you can put them "between" the different models in R classes to see what sort of separation there is, and even attempt to vaguely calculate the PIs of cars in those classes.  They might as well show it, and then U class races can be restricted by tighter groupings - a max Corvette anything doesn't stack up against a max MC12, but it does match a max Murcielago LP640.)

Also, don't be stuck in the Super Nintendo era, and forget that these games are meant to be played online - when playing online, "as meant on the disk" doesn't mean anything about ten seconds after the game is released.  :)

Desirsar:

GeorgiaDawg72:

Desirsar:

The fun part of that will be all the posts when someone logs into Live and wonders why the PI of all the cars in their garage are suddenly different...

No, the real fun part will be when they log into Forza to find the entirety of the scoreboard times wiped and then check the forums to see they've been labeled a cheater because they bought and upgraded a car the way it was intended to be on the disk. 

You may be hoping for the ability of T10 being able to adjust pi's.  But as someone who remembers the above scenario allready happening with the Elan.....I'm not.

That assumes they won't learn for their mistakes in design of the scoreboard database.  I think it'll be improved for the next game such that they can target cars in a given class or all classes that are affected "upward" (same parts under a revised PI result in a higher PI) and only posted times with those cars will be wiped instead of whole gamertag's boards and Trueskill.  Of course, the big thing I want in the next game is the removal of the PI "mask".  U class can still be 1000+, but they really need to display PI for every car, all the way up, and including purpose built race cars.  (If you build cars with particular parts, you can put them "between" the different models in R classes to see what sort of separation there is, and even attempt to vaguely calculate the PIs of cars in those classes.  They might as well show it, and then U class races can be restricted by tighter groupings - a max Corvette anything doesn't stack up against a max MC12, but it does match a max Murcielago LP640.)

Also, don't be stuck in the Super Nintendo era, and forget that these games are meant to be played online - when playing online, "as meant on the disk" doesn't mean anything about ten seconds after the game is released.  :)

Well, I would have assumed they would have learned from FM1.  I understand (didn't play it) they had to wipe the boards completely in that game twice due to glitched cars or whatever.  So they build FM2 and sure enough, the Elan comes along and people think it's glitched and they have to completely wipe the boards again.  So, will they learn for 3?  Who knows, we can only hope that they come up with a way of wiping specific times off the board without wiping any proof they ever played the game from existence.  Lots of people were furious about the Elan wipe.  But those same people said they didn't care about their Elan times, it was all the other times getting wiped that angered folks.

But, unless they can come up with a way to wipe specific times I would remain against adjusting the PI of any cars that might be out of whack.  I still have a fairly considerable number of friends on my list who haven't returned, and won't, due to the wipe and the way it was handled.

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R.I.P. Pale Rider

GeorgiaDawg72:

Mafioso:

I can see why he's annoyed, but I agree with you. That takes it too far. I dont consider them cheating cars, just cars that obviously have a big advantage. So people shouldnt bust them out in race rooms unless everybody else is. But they're def not cheating cars. Its cool to hot lap with them.

I can see why he'd be annoyed as well, until I got over the idea that forza was a sim I was annoyed as well with these cars.  But when I got over that, got used to how to drive them and actually now hold a #1 time with one when I never thought I'd ever be able to get in the top 100.  And strangely enough, once I started to learn how to drive them they taught me valuable lessons and techniques I have applied to other cars that have made me faster in them as well.

But, they are still extremely hard to keep on track, especially for multiple laps.   So, in my view, only people who are really skilled can win races of any length with them.  Just because someone comes into a race with a muscle beast does not mean they are skilled enough to keep it on line long enough to win a race.  Now, if they're that skilled to win over the course of 5 or 6 laps with them, then they're probably skilled enough to win with whatever other car you put them in.

Agreed, missile cars hard to drive without TCS. Now, Grip cars. WOOO. that is WHOLE other story. As omeone else pointed out. You try for days in a normal car (say a 355 challenge or a jaguar) and you do the absolute best you could, on the limit. Then you jump into an NSX and you instantly go overa  second faster. It happened to me. In my challenge i was at my 360 for about 4 hours a day trying to dip below 1m53. I clostest i got was 1.53.8.....Jumped into the NSX and TADA...1.52.0. After just 3 lap of basic tuning, nothing special, lower tyre pressures, stiffer roll bar, a bit of downforce.....and about another 3 laps of realising that i could break ridiculously late and just floor the gas out of a turn (don't use assits so this surprised me) and ther i was.

Those grip cars are WAY too easy to drive. And that's why i personally (my opinion) consider them less fun. i don't feel very accomplished. as if i tamed the beast. I'm sure you guys feel that way when using missile cars without TCS.

But how do grip guys feel ? I mean, missile guys (those without assists) at least they have some satisfaction that their skill is rare. And other guys using just normal cars, they have their own satisfaction as well. But grip guys? ESPECIALLY those using assists? They really should get to know what controlling a car is all about.

As was said, they paid 60 bucks for the game, they should get their money's worth and really explore th depth of the game and really appreciate just how awesome T10 physics engine really is. T10 spent a lot of time on it, I hate to see it being under-appreciated.


and dawg, i'm not attacking you, just having a discussion.

That's exactly why i love driving missile cars.  They offer the most challenge out of all the cars in the game.  I can see where i grip guy would love the car though, as the challenge of nailing each turn exactly perfect is there. 

To get faster you need to be perfect, and when they are perfect, then that's how they get their satisfaction.  I just find it more fun to try and be as perfect as possible in a 987hp GTO going around turns, lol.

---

GT - V12 Iridium

sleep3:

GeorgiaDawg72:

Mafioso:

I can see why he's annoyed, but I agree with you. That takes it too far. I dont consider them cheating cars, just cars that obviously have a big advantage. So people shouldnt bust them out in race rooms unless everybody else is. But they're def not cheating cars. Its cool to hot lap with them.

I can see why he'd be annoyed as well, until I got over the idea that forza was a sim I was annoyed as well with these cars.  But when I got over that, got used to how to drive them and actually now hold a #1 time with one when I never thought I'd ever be able to get in the top 100.  And strangely enough, once I started to learn how to drive them they taught me valuable lessons and techniques I have applied to other cars that have made me faster in them as well.

But, they are still extremely hard to keep on track, especially for multiple laps.   So, in my view, only people who are really skilled can win races of any length with them.  Just because someone comes into a race with a muscle beast does not mean they are skilled enough to keep it on line long enough to win a race.  Now, if they're that skilled to win over the course of 5 or 6 laps with them, then they're probably skilled enough to win with whatever other car you put them in.

Agreed, missile cars hard to drive without TCS. Now, Grip cars. WOOO. that is WHOLE other story. As omeone else pointed out. You try for days in a normal car (say a 355 challenge or a jaguar) and you do the absolute best you could, on the limit. Then you jump into an NSX and you instantly go overa  second faster. It happened to me. In my challenge i was at my 360 for about 4 hours a day trying to dip below 1m53. I clostest i got was 1.53.8.....Jumped into the NSX and TADA...1.52.0. After just 3 lap of basic tuning, nothing special, lower tyre pressures, stiffer roll bar, a bit of downforce.....and about another 3 laps of realising that i could break ridiculously late and just floor the gas out of a turn (don't use assits so this surprised me) and ther i was.

Those grip cars are WAY too easy to drive. And that's why i personally (my opinion) consider them less fun. i don't feel very accomplished. as if i tamed the beast. I'm sure you guys feel that way when using missile cars without TCS.

But how do grip guys feel ? I mean, missile guys (those without assists) at least they have some satisfaction that their skill is rare. And other guys using just normal cars, they have their own satisfaction as well. But grip guys? ESPECIALLY those using assists? They really should get to know what controlling a car is all about.

As was said, they paid 60 bucks for the game, they should get their money's worth and really explore th depth of the game and really appreciate just how awesome T10 physics engine really is. T10 spent a lot of time on it, I hate to see it being under-appreciated.


and dawg, i'm not attacking you, just having a discussion.

Quit attacking me damnit.

You know what's funny with the whole assists arguement.  I gurantee 99 percent of the people who get on here acting all high and mighty about not running assists are running nothing but the mega-grip cars.  Even funnier is there are people who run the mega grip cars with TCS, completely unaware that they are probably adding a tenth or two onto their times just with having TCS on. 

It is faster to run with them off.  With some cars, not the glued to the track ones, it makes it more difficult to run with TCS off.  But, I still believe that even the missles can be driven faster without TCS once perfected.  VVV WalknBMX, a longtime online racing friend, used to have #1 times (once you removed all the AWD glitchers in front of him) with the muscles before the wipe.  He's since left the game and won't come back.  But if he did, I'm confident he'd show up at the top of the boards again with unassisted muscle.  Especially now that the setups for those cars have evolved to the 2 gear setups where you're slightly bogging down your corner gear reducing initial torque and wheelspin.  I've ran a few laps lately with them off myself, and for portions of the lap I feel like I was just as fast if not faster than I was with TCS on.  But, much harder to not make that one lap killer mistake.  But, it can be done.

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R.I.P. Pale Rider

Then comes the other guys.....the guys that just like lemmings off of a cliff go to the scoreboards everyday and buy whatever is at number 1. They never do anything on their own. Most of them don't even use their own setup, they d/l that too. Don't these guys have any pride in themselves? Don't they want to be the one that makes the leaderboard car? Where is their self esteem? Tuning and making your own car fast is half the fun in forza.

This statement may be true for some, but personally my fun comes from driving, and driving alone.  I do not find it all that much fun searching for all the right parts, then all the tuning.

To each his own.  I have found that I like the R classes most because I do not have to build cars, only tune them.  I guess a perfect game for me would be one like PGR, but has realistic physics.

I do not see why it is necassary to attack peoples self esteem because they have different preferences than you.

The most fair possible situation would be to for everyone to use the same car, with the same tune, because the winner would be based soley off of driving skill.

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GT: KYLB0T (0 is a zero)

sleep3:

GeorgiaDawg72:

Mafioso:

I can see why he's annoyed, but I agree with you. That takes it too far. I dont consider them cheating cars, just cars that obviously have a big advantage. So people shouldnt bust them out in race rooms unless everybody else is. But they're def not cheating cars. Its cool to hot lap with them.

I can see why he'd be annoyed as well, until I got over the idea that forza was a sim I was annoyed as well with these cars.  But when I got over that, got used to how to drive them and actually now hold a #1 time with one when I never thought I'd ever be able to get in the top 100.  And strangely enough, once I started to learn how to drive them they taught me valuable lessons and techniques I have applied to other cars that have made me faster in them as well.

But, they are still extremely hard to keep on track, especially for multiple laps.   So, in my view, only people who are really skilled can win races of any length with them.  Just because someone comes into a race with a muscle beast does not mean they are skilled enough to keep it on line long enough to win a race.  Now, if they're that skilled to win over the course of 5 or 6 laps with them, then they're probably skilled enough to win with whatever other car you put them in.

Agreed, missile cars hard to drive without TCS. Now, Grip cars. WOOO. that is WHOLE other story. As omeone else pointed out. You try for days in a normal car (say a 355 challenge or a jaguar) and you do the absolute best you could, on the limit. Then you jump into an NSX and you instantly go overa  second faster. It happened to me. In my challenge i was at my 360 for about 4 hours a day trying to dip below 1m53. I clostest i got was 1.53.8.....Jumped into the NSX and TADA...1.52.0. After just 3 lap of basic tuning, nothing special, lower tyre pressures, stiffer roll bar, a bit of downforce.....and about another 3 laps of realising that i could break ridiculously late and just floor the gas out of a turn (don't use assits so this surprised me) and ther i was.

Those grip cars are WAY too easy to drive. And that's why i personally (my opinion) consider them less fun. i don't feel very accomplished. as if i tamed the beast. I'm sure you guys feel that way when using missile cars without TCS.

But how do grip guys feel ? I mean, missile guys (those without assists) at least they have some satisfaction that their skill is rare. And other guys using just normal cars, they have their own satisfaction as well. But grip guys? ESPECIALLY those using assists? They really should get to know what controlling a car is all about.

As was said, they paid 60 bucks for the game, they should get their money's worth and really explore th depth of the game and really appreciate just how awesome T10 physics engine really is. T10 spent a lot of time on it, I hate to see it being under-appreciated.


and dawg, i'm not attacking you, just having a discussion.

The fun thing about grip cars is knowing that you are able to make up so much time in the corners that you can beat high horsepower cars "missle cars" (dumb name for em IMO) who can run the straight away in its entirety faster than you can accelerate out of a corner, exaggeration of course. 

some of you guys need to think about both sides of an argument before attacking one side.  so ya your in a grip car and you can accelerate out of a corner easily and you can brake easily, but the fact of the matter is that you have such a power deficit on the straights that if you do not maintain your momentum throughout each section of the course you stand no chance of lapping a decent time. tell me that there isnt skill in maintaining momentum enough to stay competitive when you are 100 HP less than your opponent.  Im sorry but momentum is an important yet difficult thing to PROPERLY master. 

I mostly drive grip, but i do drive missles as well.  I enjoy both and do find the challenges in each. but i still will have to side with grippers here.  with the missles, it is VERY challenging to run a perfect lap and perfectly hit apexes and exit, however, the simple fact is that if you do not make that corner perfectly (remember this IS from experience) you can make up the time and then some on the straight with little effort and have room for error on the next corner after that. 

My example for my idea would be the comparison in difficulty to beat a missle car in a grip.  Grips cars MUST be perfect to run with missles, and missles must only make it around the track in one piece to beat grip cars.

Clearly each have their tracks on which they excell, but when talking on a fairly nuetral track, Missles simply have the advantage...

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CT Tuning FTW!

Mikey B:

My example for my idea would be the comparison in difficulty to beat a missle car in a grip.  Grips cars MUST be perfect to run with missles, and missles must only make it around the track in one piece to beat grip cars.

.

But then again, take your example to suzuka east or tsukuba and see that it reverses.  The grip car driver will be able to sleepdrive through the race and it would take a perfect run in the missle car to even have a shot to win.

The missles really only have the advantage on a handful of tracks, the other tracks are dominated by grip.  With only a couple of fairly nuetral tracks like Silverstone GP on Motegi East where the two types of cars match up relatively evenly.

---

R.I.P. Pale Rider

sleep3:

Those grip cars are WAY too easy to drive. And that's why i personally (my opinion) consider them less fun. i don't feel very accomplished. as if i tamed the beast. I'm sure you guys feel that way when using missile cars without TCS.

But how do grip guys feel ? I mean, missile guys (those without assists) at least they have some satisfaction that their skill is rare. And other guys using just normal cars, they have their own satisfaction as well. But grip guys? ESPECIALLY those using assists? They really should get to know what controlling a car is all about.

I've said this in various ways in many other threads: One of the great things about FM2 is that there are sooooo many ways to enjoy the game - driving "missiles," driving "grips," racing sprints / mids / enduros, painting, tuning, etc... even the drag and drift guys find a way to have fun. There is something for just about everybody.

sleep3 --- you feel that "grip cars are WAY too easy," and I feel the same way about the missiles: full power, brake way early, creep around the turn, full power, lather - rinse - repeat On the other hand, I get great satisfaction out of watching a replay of a good race in a grip car, and seeing that I carried 106 mph through a turn that I normally only carry 104 mph through. I also get great satisfaction out of using my "gripper" to beat the guys in the missiles on Road Atlanta.

Let's not forget that, in an 8-player "all grip cars" race, in no way is it easy to win... it is just as difficult as winning in an 8-player "all missile cars" race.

You enjoy, and get great satisfaction, out of "taming the beast" ... Great! More power to ya! (get it? more power to ya? Bah! I crack myself up!)

I enjoy, and get great satisfaction, out of squeezing another mph out of a turn, or trimming another 5/100ths off of a Hot Lap.

Neither way of enjoying the game is any better, or any more or less difficult, as any other, and, personally, I would never tell someone else that his way of enjoying the game is "wrong", and my way is "right."

As a Real World "sorta" comparison: I drive Road Atlanta. When most people find out, the first thing out of their mouths is "Cool - how fast do you go"? My response is that I don't really know - I rarely look at the speedometer when I'm out on the track. And, on the long back straight? That's when I'm relaxing - stretching my fingers, checking gauges, rolling my shoulders and neck... Sure, I'm going full-throttle, but, when I come down the hill into Turn 10-A (which is where I'm hitting my top speed), my attention is nowhere near the speedo. Fast in a straight line, after you've done it a couple times, gets pretty boring. Whipping through the esses and hitting the apex just right at Turn 5... that's fun!

- Don

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GT: Don Ente



Video - Forza vs. Real World at Road Atlanta

+1, well said Don.

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GT: Major Pile
Virtual Motorsports Racing League - www.vmracingleague.com.

GeorgiaDawg72:

Mikey B:

My example for my idea would be the comparison in difficulty to beat a missle car in a grip.  Grips cars MUST be perfect to run with missles, and missles must only make it around the track in one piece to beat grip cars.

.

But then again, take your example to suzuka east or tsukuba and see that it reverses.  The grip car driver will be able to sleepdrive through the race and it would take a perfect run in the missle car to even have a shot to win.

The missles really only have the advantage on a handful of tracks, the other tracks are dominated by grip.  With only a couple of fairly nuetral tracks like Silverstone GP on Motegi East where the two types of cars match up relatively evenly.

okie dokie....please when you decide to make a counter point to somebody, dont just select part of their idea.  See, THIS was my full idea of what you quoted

"My example for my idea would be the comparison in difficulty to beat a missle car in a grip.  Grips cars MUST be perfect to run with missles, and missles must only make it around the track in one piece to beat grip cars.

Clearly each have their tracks on which they excell, but when talking on a fairly nuetral track, Missles simply have the advantage..."

so you see there was no need to make the comment about the grip cars on Tskuba, I already agreed that both types had tracks on which they are dominant.  the point of my discussion was based on neutral racing tracks (and there are plenty of neutral tracks, most of which are the favorites on the game)...

oh and i must say, Silverstone is definitely a missle car track, ya there are corners but the entire track is ridiculously wide allowing for a whole lot of error through a corner with very little consequences.  its simply a high speed track with a couple hairpins...which lead to large straights

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CT Tuning FTW!

To disprove an above statement...

Just an example...Silverstone Grand Prix in A-class has 30 out of the top 50 cars being grip cars,29 if you don't want to count the TVR as either.  In any case, that is the definitive majority. 

What does that mean?...that Silverstone GP is indeed a neutral track, but still the grip cars outweigh the missle cars in dominance.

Why is this?  It's because that only a select few can manage the missle cars well enough around a neutral track to make it worthwhile, regardless of who much top end they have.  I'm not saying that it's easier to drive missle or grip cars, I'm simply stating the fact that on the above mentioned neutral track the #1 time is indeed a missle car, but the easy majority of cars in the top 50 are grip cars. 

So ultimately one could make a case for either side by saying "well the missle cars own the Top 10 times" or "the grip cars take up the majority of the Top 50".  Either statement could be well argued, but ultimately would not find a clear "winner". 

My personal opinion if I had to choose one being more difficult?...I'd say missle cars for the simple fact that sure they are fast, but it takes quite a bit of concentration to get those cars around any track (shoot, even in a straight line sometimes) quickly and enough to produce fast laps.  Besides, as I said before, if it was that easy why hasn't everyone who tried it had equal success to the top drivers that can or choose to run those cars on the appropriate tracks?

---

Proud Member of DMR...GT: DMR Adequate
www.TeamDMR.com
Basically retired until Race Pro and the possible FM3...

R.I.P. Pale Rider

Jbiz2301:

To disprove an above statement...

Just an example...Silverstone Grand Prix in A-class has 30 out of the top 50 cars being grip cars,29 if you don't want to count the TVR as either.  In any case, that is the definitive majority. 

What does that mean?...that Silverstone GP is indeed a neutral track, but still the grip cars outweigh the missle cars in dominance.

Why is this?  It's because that only a select few can manage the missle cars well enough around a neutral track to make it worthwhile, regardless of who much top end they have.  I'm not saying that it's easier to drive missle or grip cars, I'm simply stating the fact that on the above mentioned neutral track the #1 time is indeed a missle car, but the easy majority of cars in the top 50 are grip cars. 

So ultimately one could make a case for either side by saying "well the missle cars own the Top 10 times" or "the grip cars take up the majority of the Top 50".  Either statement could be well argued, but ultimately would not find a clear "winner". 

My personal opinion if I had to choose one being more difficult?...I'd say missle cars for the simple fact that sure they are fast, but it takes quite a bit of concentration to get those cars around any track (shoot, even in a straight line sometimes) quickly and enough to produce fast laps.  Besides, as I said before, if it was that easy why hasn't everyone who tried it had equal success to the top drivers that can or choose to run those cars on the appropriate tracks?

dude, go filter out the assists and count how many missile cars are left. Your argument kinda falls down.

sleep3:

dude, go filter out the assists and count how many missile cars are left. Your argument kinda falls down.

So we'd like to bring assists back in to the arguement again?  I thought we were done with that one a long time ago. 

Anyway, that just further illustrates my point that missle cars are harder to drive, but that's not the point.  Oh, and as well further proves my point that the neutral track Silverstone is dominated by grip cars, but that's still not the point.  The point in this particular matter is that missle cars are fast on the proper track with a skilled driver with or without assists.  I just watched about an hour ago a no-assist driver take a 2000 GT!!! on Road America in A-class and cruise to an EASY 2.02.7xx...easily a Top 100 time...and I'm pretty sure his non-assisted PB is a low 2.01.xx.  So really it's not about which cars are better, it's about learning to use the proper car for the proper application.  Using top drivers as my example just illustrates my point further because there is less margin for error in comparing the two as there would be in using a mediocre driver that makes quite a few mistakes as the test subject.  

---

Proud Member of DMR...GT: DMR Adequate
www.TeamDMR.com
Basically retired until Race Pro and the possible FM3...

R.I.P. Pale Rider

dude, i'm sorry, i really spologize but i will just like to say once and for all, as clearly and concisely as possible.

What was your main point? i got lost and I don't feel like reading through all that text. something about drivers and grip cars and medium cars and medium tracks and silverstone being a medium track with assists and not without it, and something or the other. got lost somewhere.

WOW, Just realised something. Without assists there are SIX different cars in the top 11. That's competitive. Imagine a room with six different cars...............hmm
Of course with assists its total and utter stingray domination

Good to see a TVR up there too. Shows some people taking a chance.

i find enjoyment in driving not winning, so i usually dont. even if i did i would still lose, im a horrid racer, but i have fun!

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aba is not amused, sig was removed

Mikey B:

GeorgiaDawg72:

Mikey B:

My example for my idea would be the comparison in difficulty to beat a missle car in a grip.  Grips cars MUST be perfect to run with missles, and missles must only make it around the track in one piece to beat grip cars.

.

But then again, take your example to suzuka east or tsukuba and see that it reverses.  The grip car driver will be able to sleepdrive through the race and it would take a perfect run in the missle car to even have a shot to win.

The missles really only have the advantage on a handful of tracks, the other tracks are dominated by grip.  With only a couple of fairly nuetral tracks like Silverstone GP on Motegi East where the two types of cars match up relatively evenly.

okie dokie....please when you decide to make a counter point to somebody, dont just select part of their idea.  See, THIS was my full idea of what you quoted

"My example for my idea would be the comparison in difficulty to beat a missle car in a grip.  Grips cars MUST be perfect to run with missles, and missles must only make it around the track in one piece to beat grip cars.

Clearly each have their tracks on which they excell, but when talking on a fairly nuetral track, Missles simply have the advantage..."

so you see there was no need to make the comment about the grip cars on Tskuba, I already agreed that both types had tracks on which they are dominant.  the point of my discussion was based on neutral racing tracks (and there are plenty of neutral tracks, most of which are the favorites on the game)...

oh and i must say, Silverstone is definitely a missle car track, ya there are corners but the entire track is ridiculously wide allowing for a whole lot of error through a corner with very little consequences.  its simply a high speed track with a couple hairpins...which lead to large straights

Whoa there, slow your roll.  I read your whole post.  But my point is you can't have one without the other.  You can't complain that missles dominate on tracks without acknowledging that the grip cars dominate more tracks.  And yes they do dominate more tracks, some people might not like them, but the test tracks are in fact tracks in this game.

And there's not that many really nuetral tracks if you judge the scoreboards.  Silverstone is pretty nuetral.  Take A class for instance.  The top times are mostly in Stingray's.  But I'm in the top 30 with a ultra grippy Renault.  Get me in a race with 7 guys in Stingrays and me in the Renault and I'll likely win unless someone runs a perfect race with the Stingray.  Because not only can I run a very fast lap time, I can do so a lot more consistently.  Motegi East and West and TT Copperhead are 3 more fairly nuetral tracks where you'll see both grip and muscle in the top 30. 

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R.I.P. Pale Rider

Jbiz2301:

To disprove an above statement...

Just an example...Silverstone Grand Prix in A-class has 30 out of the top 50 cars being grip cars,29 if you don't want to count the TVR as either.  In any case, that is the definitive majority. 

What does that mean?...that Silverstone GP is indeed a neutral track, but still the grip cars outweigh the missle cars in dominance.

Why is this?  It's because that only a select few can manage the missle cars well enough around a neutral track to make it worthwhile, regardless of who much top end they have.  I'm not saying that it's easier to drive missle or grip cars, I'm simply stating the fact that on the above mentioned neutral track the #1 time is indeed a missle car, but the easy majority of cars in the top 50 are grip cars. 

So ultimately one could make a case for either side by saying "well the missle cars own the Top 10 times" or "the grip cars take up the majority of the Top 50".  Either statement could be well argued, but ultimately would not find a clear "winner". 

My personal opinion if I had to choose one being more difficult?...I'd say missle cars for the simple fact that sure they are fast, but it takes quite a bit of concentration to get those cars around any track (shoot, even in a straight line sometimes) quickly and enough to produce fast laps.  Besides, as I said before, if it was that easy why hasn't everyone who tried it had equal success to the top drivers that can or choose to run those cars on the appropriate tracks?

Should have read your post before I basically repeated it in the above post.

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R.I.P. Pale Rider

^^^^ LOL.  i understand that there are more tracks that are grippy, but thats a part of road racing, if we just wanted power in the majority of races we could hit up those NASCAR games

and about the points about top 50's being grips while the top 10's are missles, well i dont know of the accuracy of this but when considering this fact i think we must consider the amount of "grip" tuned cars in the game versus the amount of "missle" tuned cars.  there are a select few cars that make truly competitive missles...if there were more, i think they would hold a higher percentage of the leaderboard...just something to consider in this already huge discussion

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CT Tuning FTW!